Romulan Kestral MSY's and Spare Parts Options
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Romulan Kestral MSY's and Spare Parts Options
Explanation
The Romulans during the later part of the war can frequently find themselves running out of replacement parts for their Kestral hulls. But they also can produce new ones via a MSY built for that purpose.
This is a proposal to allow the Romulan player some additional options with Kestral MSY's and replacement parts and repair.
Proposal
On any turn in which a Kestral minor shipyard is not used to produce a new hull it may do ONE of the following:
a) For a 1ep charge it may produce spare parts for the type of ship it produces. For this turn all ships of this type are repaired as if spare parts were available.
This option does NOT add turns of spare parts in any way. Its only use is if you are OUT of spares, you may repair a specific class of ship (K4 K5 or KDR) as if you were not out of parts.
b) For a 1ep charge it may fabricate spares sufficient to allow Shipcost round up(K4 yard = 3 K5 yard = 4 KDR yard = 5) of general repairs to Kestral units as if spares were available. These parts are fabricated as needed, so the repair facility making the repairs MUST be colocated with the MSY providing the spares. These repair parts may be spread out amongst as many vessels as needed, but they must all be repaired in the hex with the MSY.
The MSY does not generate ANY repair points on its own. It only facilitates a co-located repair facility such as a base FRD etc with the ability to repair so many repair points as if spares were available. In essence as the repair yard calls for such and such a part, the MSY fabricates it and sends it to the yard.
c) For a 1ep surcharge the minor shipyard can provide the ability to repair any SINGLE Kestral ship as if spare parts were available. However the ship so designated cannot be more than 1 size class larger than the shipyard is designed to build. (K4,K5 yards sz=3 KDR sz=2). The repair facility must be co-located with the MSY as in b) above and operates in all ways identically to b) except it is ONE ship only but as many or as few repair points as needed for the one repair provided of course the repair facility has the capacity.
Clarifications
This is designed to augment spare parts. Under no circumstances is it meant to increase repair capacity in a hex at all. The MSY's are not doing any repairs themselves they always just facilitate other normally legal repairs.
Its meant to include the ability for field repair as well as rapid repair rule where you can repair during combat (although the later might require some modification) For option b) its also assumed you can mix repair types. So if you are at a KDR yard and repair an 8/4 unit for 4 points you have 1 point of spare parts left, you could use that 1 point to partly repair another 8/4 unit then pay the no spare parts penalty for the other 3 repair points needed.
I picked 1ep as the surcharge as its not inconsequential but not overwhelming either. I wanted to avoid some kind of calculation for simplicities sake, I originally thought .1ep surcharge per repair point facilitated, but I am not sure the extra bookeeping is worth it.
So when you complain.. be gentle!
I dont have PO so this question may be invalid,
If a KDR yard builds a FF hull can the yard generate the difference between a KDR and FF in extra spares
Jason,
I am almost positive that the KDR yard cannot produce smaller ships. But I have never thought about it, so never looked at the rules. I know MSY's are prohibited from build alternate hulls. So for exampe if your CW can be subbed out for a DD hull normally, the MSY building CW's is I believe not allowed to do that.
I will try and remember to look at the MSY rules again when I get home.
However, if it was allowed, I would say no. The intent is that you sacrafice the hull build. If the SY is busy building a ship it cannot build parts!
"Uh sorry mac... we're buildin' a frigate at da moment.. and da contract don't allow us.. we can make a ship.. or make parts.. ya ordered a ship... so your gettin a ship"
MSYs cannot normally sub a ship with a different base hull type. The only exception is to build smaller base hull ships that could be converted into the base hull type for that yard. This lets the Lyrans build a DD in a CW yard or an FF in a DW yard as building the former uses all parts common to the latter. I believe that the Kzinti can also build FFs in an FFK yard for the same reason. It would also be reasonable for the Fed to build FFs in an FFB yard or for Gorn to build DDs in a BD yard. In all cases, why you would build the larger yard and then use it to build the smaller hulls comes into question (but there are reasons at times).
Michael
I think it would weaken one of the few 'Anti-Coalition' rules that exist and with careful planning of what you cripple, would totally invalidate the Spare part situation.
i.e. Build the K5 MSY.
Only cripple K5's.
Use the MSY to produce K5 spare parts.....
Point of the rule is removed (although at a minor cost each turn, and the inability build a K5 a turn).
So, leave the rule as it is - it gives a strategic reason to keep the Klingon/Romulan path open.
Paul,
There are several reasons I like the idea of having the rule. And I think a weakening is okay in this case.
Firstly the Romulans are allowed to build Kestral MSY's that actually suprises me, but once its allowed in the rules one has to ask themselves? What is the deal with spare parts? If they can MAKE these hulls they cannot make spare parts for them?
There is a huge black hole of reason here, and one thing F&E tends to do pretty well is have rules that simulate reason.
I think its a little far-fetched to say they will build the K5 yard and then only cripple K5's but if they did it wouldn't be terrible. I don't know off-hand but its not like they are overrun with the smaller K4 K5 or KDR hulls that I remember in any case. What hurts then is the Cruiser sized hulls.
I would sure be willing to see more restrictions on it though if that made sense to keep the flavour of being hurt by no spare parts. I basically want something implimented to handle this situation.
Me: "Mmmm I am going to repair the KDR and 2 K4's"
Opponent: "Mike your out of spare parts"
Me: "What the hell, I built a whole KDR last turn at the Minor Shipyard.. I can't fab parts for it"
Opponent: "Well its not in the rules"
Me:
As a possible change. The a) above rather than allow you to repair ALL hulls, How about a number of repair points equal to twice the shipcost. So a K4 could repair 5 repair points of K4 units a K5 yard could repair 6 points of K5 and a KDR could repair 10 points of KDR.
Again by points I mean support the spare parts for some other facility to repair the ships.
Also for b) while rereading I realized I was not completly clear. This will support 3 4 or 5 REPAIR points for General Kestral units. NOT 3, or 5 SHIP repairs. so you could repair a couple of frigates, or a cruiser, or a frig and warcruiser. etc. Whereas c allows you to repair any one ship no matter how many repair points.
Paul,
Would restricting it to that smaller number of repair points about when choosing a) be reasonable do you think? A K4 yard could make enough to repair 2.5 K4's a turn so if you had 2 K4 yards you could repair 5xK4 per turn as if you had spare parts. This would cost 2ep + 5ep = 7ep instead of 10ep. The K5 could repair 3xK5 this would cost 1ep + 3ep = 4ep instead of 6ep. The KDR could repair 2.5 KDR's or using two would repair 5xKDR's for 2ep + 10ep = 12 EP instead of 20ep.
Michael
To tell the truth - no.
The whole idea of K parts was to create a problem which forces the Coalition to do something.
The Coalition get so many 'unique' things - yet very few disadvantages.
Originally - the Federation got special fighters, and so only they (and the Hydrans) could field more more 18 fighters in a line.
Then everyone got CVD's.
The Romulans didn't get a good enough CVD, so one was introduced (unbalancing it in my humble opinion - but thats another story).
Your now wanting to get round the Spare parts problem!!!
The game needs certain parts to keep tactics both map wide and more local - Spare parts is one of the map wide ones. Remove it - and the Coalition can just drive on Earth - ignoring everything else, which might seem 'logical'.
Sorry to give your idea such a pounding, but it just smacks of 'lets make life easier on the Romulans' so they can ignore what was needed to be done in 'real life'!
Unfortunately far too many non-historical aspects to the game already favour the Coalition - and this just adds to that list.
Sorry 
Paul
Protogoras,
You have a very good point that it is odd that the Romulans can't build spare parts when they can build the Kestrels themselves. A K5 shipyard for instance should be able to build at least enough spare parts to cover the repairs of 2 K5s instead of a new K5 hull. On the other hand, it would also be reasonable that instead of allowing the KR shipyards to build spare parts, that the Kestrels simply cost more to build when spare parts are not available.
Paul,
This isn't because I am some Romulan whiner. This has nothing to do with "Your now wanting to get round the Spare parts problem!!!"
and much more with the simple statement that if I can BUILD the whole darn ship it is rather silly to suppose I couldn't build spare parts for those ships.
So if you have a problem with things being made to easy for the Romulans, that is a valid point that perhaps could be addressed elsewhere.
But when you say "but it just smacks of 'lets make life easier on the Romulans' so they can ignore what was needed to be done in 'real life'!"
My response is simply. No, I am not trying to make things easier for the Romulans so that can ignore what needed to be done in real life. I am saying that its incredibly counter-intuitive to say "Yes we can produce the Entire Ship when cut off from the klingons, but if you want widget D or phaser coupling subassembly X4-1 then sorry we don't have the ability" In fact although I loathe to use the tern 'real life' in a game setting I think I know what you mean by that term and I am saying this rule makes things 'more real life'
It is certainly valid to say it is unbalancing. But if it is, then its better to say how its unbalancing and try and adjust it rather than say no. I do NOT want it to remove the Romulan spare parts problem. I am just looking to add something that seems quite possible and reasonable.
Don't you think its just odd that they can produce the whole ship but not the parts? I mean unless there is like a huge KDR Waffle Iron that they poor special batter in to make the ships.. don't they have to make the parts and assemble them?
Perhaps I am not seeing this as a huge help to the Romulans.
Lets use a KDR yard with the change above. And to avoid fractions lets use two of them. I think the only the Feds and Klinks can build 3 CW yards.
Under the revised a) this would provide 20 repair points at the standard .5 rate for KDR units. In exchange they would lose 2ep's and could not produce 2xKDR's.
So suppose they decided to just build 2xKDR's instead? That would be 10ep. Then because they are out of spare parts, they would have to absorb damage on non kestral CW's which they would do whenever they could. However if they were forced to resolve on KDR's then how would they do this?
20 repair points is 40 damage absorbed (5 8/4 hulls). You COULD resolve that as 2 killed KDR's and 2 crippled KDR's that's 40 Damage.
You would repair the 2 crippled KDR's for 8ep since your out of spare parts, then you spent 10ep to build 2 more this turn so your hull count remains the same. That is 18ep and no change in KDR count.
Or you could not produce KDR's at your two yards, and instead pay 2ep to provide 20 repair points. Then you instead cripple 5xKDR for 40 points. But your now repearing each crippled KDR for 2 points. So its 10 repair and 2 to activate the shipyards for 12ep.
So the benefit is 6ep in the case where the Romulan has to resolve on Ketral hulls. This is where I think we can look and analyze and make changes. It does in this example make the repair bill 2/3 of what it was. Perhaps that needs tweaking, or perhaps if we just required a) to also be co-located repair that would be enough of a penalty to balance it.
Michael,
That is also a good idea?! I mean my complaint is that it just seems silly. I mean honestly I just frown when I see the situation where the Romulan player is having to contemplate making sure he can resolve damage on his home grown designs because spare parts are a problem for him, when at the same time during builds he is contemplating the possibility of building 2xK4 2xK5 2xKDR from MSY's now he would probably only have a couple K style shipyards as its probably better to have the SK and SP hulls.
One way to make it realistic would be to say "Because of the shortage of spares, anyturn that the Romulans are out of spares, production of Kestral hulls at MSY's are charged a 1ep surcharge"
That MIGHT even be a better way to resolve the issue. It certainly makes it seem reasonable and it eliminates the oddness of repair being one way and new production the other.
Let me think on this one! It would certainly be a much smaller 'footprint' change.. rather than all these specialty repair rules it would be a simple charge for Kestrals produced when out of spares!
This question has no significance in a historical campaign. It would make sense to build their own spare parts - basicaly build all the compenents but dont assemble them
When
a)
If after aquiring K blueprints the roms and kilnks fall out with each other.
b)
If surrender conditions are applied (Empires in Arms style) the roms and Klinks may not be able to trade
Well in a sense its OBVIOUS the Roms can build the spare parts. If they couldn't produce spare parts the rule would be you cannot repair Kestrals if your out of spares. The rule is rather saying its alot harder.
The idea I had was in a way saying, if they built the K-type shipyards, the shipyards could build the spare parts.
However there is another way to look at it. Perhaps the K-type shipyards are using the spare parts themselves in a way. Then perhaps they cannot really produce spare parts in an efficient enough manner to be an exception to the rule. If that is the view, then we need to add a surcharge to the K-Type shipyards to represent this.
An interesting view I hadn't thought of before.
So if Klinks and Roms cant exchange "spare parts" to build the K-series hulls what happens to the shipyard?
Does it sit idle or what.
I would suggest that it be allowed to build first generation ships like snipes and war eagles as these are very primitive hulls. They are not much use but better than nothing
Well Jason,
The ROMS can choose to build FF DW and CW class of Minor ShipYards.
I do not have my rules available but it lists it in there. But basically they build different sorts of MSY. Other races build an FF yard or a DW or a CW but they only have one version of each ship or if they have multiple they are sort of variants of each other.
So anyway for the ROMs when they build say a FF MSY they have to choose between K4 SN or I think SEH. When they build a DW they have K5 or SK and when they build CW they have KDR or SP.
Now WHY they would build the Kestral MSY's is beyond me, but some scenarios have them with Kestral MSY's. If I had my choice I would build the modular ships. The KDR is an 8/4 CW but it is not BG eligable, and the SP is well modular! The K5 is .5 ep cheaper for the same 5/3 as tke SK but again the SK is modular and never has repair parts issues. And I don't see an advantage to the K4 over the SN or SEH at all.
So there is a problem in the scenarios as they have prebuilt K yards, in a GW scenario I just wouldn't build the Kestral MSY's at all.
I could maybe see building the K5 yards; it does, eventually, give one and out from building the SK (admittedly, you have to build more than 12 K5s from each yard to make up the surcharge).
Modularity is almost pointless, in my experience, particularly for the SK hull. As for repairs, well, that can always be dealt with by self-killing the K5s or running them through the depot.
I believe that even if the Roms build KR based hulls they are still using some imported parts and equipment designed to fit into the KR hulls. They don't produce those on their own because their facilities are setup to produce the parts required for the Hawk hulls.
Obviously the Rom thought (incorrectly) that they would have sufficient parts, or access to parts, to maintain their KR fleet without problem. If there is a problem with the Spare Parts rule and the MSY rule the best fix is to penalize production of KR type ships if the Rom does not have spare parts. I suggest a 50% cost penalty.