Archive through June 13, 2008
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
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Archive through June 13, 2008
302.352
The last sentence says
Quote:These squadrons are "ship equivalents" under (501.9) and (302.332).
F+E 2K, page 20.
Great, now the Sultan is really confused.
Hopefully we will be able to agree on what the rules are before it's time for the Hydrans to build.
Here's my understanding, and the rule for each:
Under the 2K rules (302.334) you can only have three SE of "true carrier" fighters in the battle. There are no oversized squadrons. Hence, for the Hydrans, only 18 "true carrier" fighters can be used at a time.
Also under 302.334, you can leave up to half the fighters of one carrier out of the battle to meet this limit. So, PAL + 4CV + 4UH + HN + HN could have 18 "true carrier" fighters on the line, 6 hybrid fighters from the PAL and 6 hybrid fighters from the two DEs. But the UH and CV together have 19 "true carrier" fighters, so one of them would have to leave one fighter out of the battle. (Replacing the UH above with a CV would also be legal, but then one of the CVs would have to leave 4 fighters out of the battle, which is still less than 1/2 of 11.)
PAL + 3x4CV would not be legal since even 2x4CVs has 22 "true carrier" fighters.
For pinning purposes, there's no difference between a true-carrier fighter and a hybrid fighter. 501.9 states that 6 (really 6-8) fighter factors is one SE. It's been ruled on the board that it doesn't matter how many times you have to make the calculation, but each time various ships move into or out of a hex, you redo the calculation by adding all fighters and dividing them into ship equivalents, regardless of the source (hybrid, carrier, base, PDU, independent.) So, three Kzinti CVL's would have 2 SE of fighters (12 fighters) not 1.5 (three "half SE.")
Similarly, your group of 6x4CV would have 66 "true carrier" fighters and 18 hybrid fighters, or 14 SE from fighters. (Plus the 24 SE from ships, total of 38 SE.)
Note: In the AO rules, it tells you specifically that the "oversized" squadron can be treated as 6 fighters = 1 SE. But I'm pretty sure that you also have a choice to treat them all as 1 SE if you want. (I'm also pretty sure I can come up with a reason to want to...) But you're not using AO rules for this game, so I guess that's just extra information.
Matt,
Rule 302.351 and 352 state the Fed fighters count as one ship equivalent for command purposes, not pinning.
I don't think any of those rules are for pinning, just command purposes. Also rule 205.71 says that 6 fighters or 6 PFs is equal to one ship for purposes of 203.5 (the pinning rules). There is no exception made for the Fed special fighters anywhere that pinning is discussed (but there is whenever command is discussed).
Rob: From Q&A archive file for CL35.
Quote:Q: Heavy Fighters, F-14s, and F-15s have added combat factors due to their quality. When pinning, do I count ship equivalents or combat factors?
A: Rule (203.54) says each ship equivalent of fighters pins one ship. A group of eight factors of F-14s is still only one ship equivalent according to (302.352). You must count ship equivalents, not attack factors.
[edit] I've got to get better at thinking to check the Q&A archive. Whenever two smart people can read the exact same rules and come to different conclusions, it's likely the question has been asked, and answered, before. I spent about 20 minutes typing my initial response, then erasing a bunch since I wasn't adding anything new, and then trying to find a way to convey why I thought I was right, even though we both read the same rules and came to a different conclusion.
Bah....
Easier to just point to the Q&A archive. So that's what I did.
Wow, I've been playing the Fed CV groups way wrong then. Good to know for our game as the Feds are coming soon, and now I won't have to overpin them.
WE INTERRUPT OUR REGULAR PROGRAMMING TO BRING YOU THIS SPECIAL BULLETIN FROM THE GALACTIC NEWS SERVICE (GNS)
The assault on Kzintai is underway. The butcher's bill is immense. So many ships are dead and crippled that the exact toll is unknown at this time. It will take our analysts some time to determine exactly what has happened.
This much is known. All PDUs on Kzintai destroyed. Kzintai devestated. Starbase crippled. Kzinti CVE dead. Many Kzinti cripples. Many Coalition crippled and self killed.
The battle continues.
It is clear that the Kzintai region cannot hold out much longer. However, our analysts are unable to determine who is likely to control the region at the end of the present battle. Vielsam major remains untouched. Its population is preparing for the expected onslaught.
Well, the god gods, clearly favour the Kzinti...
After 11 rounds of combat - the averages are -
VBIR 3.27
Coalition 3.54
Kzinti 4.27
What makes the difference even more beneficial to the Kzinti, is that out of 11 rounds, the Coalition outrolled the Kzinti 5 times - but on 3 of those occasions, did no more Percentage damage. The Kzinti outrolled 6 times, and in 5 of those did more Percentage damage.
Currently- - the Kzinti have done 25% more 'percentage' damage 
Current dead ships are
Kzinti CVE (Direct killed as it wasn't escorted).
Coalition - All Self Killed
Lyrans CC, 3 x CW, 2 x DW, DWS
Klingons D7C, 9 x D5, 2 x F5S
I really didn't want to self kill, but due to the above average Kzinti rolling, I am having to (I think that extra 25% damage has caused about 60 damage - which is the equivalent to only needing to cripple 15 of the above ships!).
In addition to the dice rolls for damage - the Kzinti also suprised me in not directing on the D6M's.... which mauled, and both then failed the Shock roll (so there has been 5 mauler 'shots', 3 Direct Killed, and 2 Crippled though shocking)
I was expecting to lose 3 ships in taking the capital - and cripple another 100 or so....
Looks like I will only cripple about 90 or so, but have lost 18 ships
Hopefully the remaining battles will equal some of the damage out (although doing 10% more with 200 compot is alot better than doing 5% more with only 100 compot).
When the dust clears - hopefully it will have been worth it.
Klingons also spent 3 Command Points, Kzinti 2 (I believe - only the Capital system has been assaulted so far).
Defences left are the SB with 1 SID, and 4 PDU's on Vronkett, plus 19 mobile Ships.
32 Klingons (including 1 Mauler) and 13 Lyrans are uncrippled.
Combat should be conlcuded soon.
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful,
The Apostates are exactly correct. The reason for our joy, and their sorrow, is the good grace of Allah. For we know Allah well, and they know nothing of Him.
We propose that there be peace among us. Our sole demand is that you return to the Ummah of Allah, and submit yourselves to His will. I will be your guide.
All I know is there are a whole lot of people that play an entirely different game than I do.
Self killed 14 cruisers?!?!??!?
The mind goggles.
Larry
I know - I would shoot myself, but the hex in question was going to be a close fight.
Once I had committed to capture the hex - I think I have to go for it (time scales for Hydrans and Fed fronts etc).
Half the problem has been William has got the 'right' dice at the right time. I think we both did 35% damage on the 1st round over the Capital - the problem was, as William didn't direct on the Mauler - I had to take something like 82 damage - so half my 10 points ships got crippled on the first round, the Scout and CC's got self killed - if I had self crippled the DN/C8's to save not killing other ships - I probably would have dropped to about 110-115 compot - by self killing when I did - I kept the Compot between 120-130, for the bulk of the assault.
If the rolling had been average on both sides - my losses would have been limited to probably 5 or 6 ships (accepting the odd good roll on the defenders side will kill a ship now and again due to the large amount of damage taken, and the inability to cripple everything) - the extra 'lcuky' damage has caused the extra kills - and the failed mauler rolls are just icing on the cake
So - partial madness yes - but my plan requires 1401 to fall on turn 3.
Heck, D5's are there to blow up. Their warranty period is only 6 months 
But seriously, they only cost 5 EPs, and the Klingons after the first few turns usually have a lot of them running around. I'd personally self-kill F5Ls and F5s first, but sometimes you need to resolve that 11 damage per hull. So in that respect, he only really self-killed 2 cruisers and 12 baby-cruisers.
Paul is essentially in the position of a prospector who is digging for gold, only to continually learn that said gold is slightly deeper than he thought.
On the first round, when I chose to let the damage fall, he had two choices:
1. Take the damage entirely by crippling. As he said, his compot now drops, and he will not be able to take the hex.
2. Do some self killing to keep his compot up. In this way, he remains in a position to take the hex.
At the time, he could not have known that he was slated for further bad luck. But as the rolls came in, every time he again had the same choice. If he didn't self kill, he was not going to take the hex. If he did self kill, he was still in a position to take it, but further bad rolls would force more self killing.
The problem for him is that he may not be done self killing.
The opportunity cost of all those lost hulls (19 and counting!) is enormous. I have found that, almost without exception, self-killing is a bad idea for the Coalition in the early part of the game. If you get into a battle that you can only win through self-killing, that battle is probably not worth fighting and you have not committed enough forces to the battle in the first place.
I understand that you are on a tight schedule and would like to take the Kzinti capital on Turn 3, but if the Kzinti commit to an all-out defense of their capital, there are far better things you could be doing with your forces. Hit them where they ain't and take out everything outside the capital on the cheap. And you could still send a sizable force to raid the capital in order to devastate any poorly defended planets. You will have to wait to mount the capital assault, but in the interim you will have destroyed all targets outside the capital relatively cheaply.
So, what are the forces like attacking and defending at the Count's and Duke's SBs?
That's why when planning a capital assault, you have to build your line planning for the worst. If your opponent can do say 100 damage max, you have to build your line such that it can absorb that damage without your force loosing too much in the way of Compot. In those cases, you know you will have to self kill, so you plan for it. Should your opponent roll badly, then you may not have to self kill ships. Six D5s if killed can absorb 66 damage, which in the above example will go a long way in taking the massive damage a capital assault can incur.
The point is that the Kzinti did not commit to an all out defense of their capital. I was willing to give him the option of taking Kzintai in a close and risky battle, leaving the outer starbases both up, and myself being in a position to quickly repair my fleet, while he had a huge number of crips that will take longer to repair.
His alternative would have been to go for both outer starbases. This had its own difficulties, including the fact that I would have double reserved one starbase. I don't know if this would have been enough to hold said starbase, or if it would have merely made it another close and risky battle. In either case, this course of action would also have given me another turn to build up defenses at Kzintai.
I cannot say that Paul made the wrong choice. What is clear is that the choice he made carried with it the risk of having to self kill if the dice were in my favor. In the event, this is what happened.
To me, what is interesting about the current situation is what happens next. Kzintai is down, yes, but the outer starbases are all up, and his crip problem will weaken his offensive until at least turn 6.
My overall assessment is that it would be premature to say that either of us has played incorrectly. We have an interesting and unusual position in which both sides have certain advantages.
WE INTERRUPT OUR REGULAR PROGRAMMING TO BRING YOU THIS SPECIAL BULLETIN FROM THE GALACTIC NEWS SERVICE (GNS)
Kzintai has fallen. Arriving reports have given our analysts a fuller picture than what we reported previously. This is what we know:
Destroyed:
Klingon: D7C, 7D5, 2F5S, E4A
Lyran: DN, CC, 3CW, 2DW, DWS
Kzinti: CVE, TGT, 2DF, SB, 11PDU, Shipyard
Crippled:
Kzinti: approximately 60EP
Coalition: approximately 120EP
Coalition losses were greater than expected. This has been variously attributed to faulty mauler capacitor design, improper training of war cruiser damage control personnel, defective disruptor bolt fuses, intentional "mistakes" by Vudar slaves, a Kzinti tactical choice that the the Coalition did not expect, and Divine intervention. It is unlikely that the true cause or causes will ever be fully understood.
Wait...11 PDUs? You brought 6 extra, there should have been 14 on Kzintai with the starting 8.
And the Shipyard doesn't get destroyed unless the entire Capital hex gets taken. There are 28 PDUs in the Kzinti Capital hex. With the 6 extra you brought that's 34 PDUs the Coalition would have to destroy before the Shipyard blows up.
International Space News...the Neutral view of the Galaxy...
Here on the liberated planets of the former Kzinti homeworld systems, citizens rejoice in gainig their freedom from their previous evil overlords.
Everyone we have spoken to are gladly accepting the liberators, and it is hoped the evil overlords will not return.
...wait...a spontanious Celebration of Freedom has just been declared in the City 25 miles to the south....we better go and see that!
.............
Elsewhere...
The man viewed what only several weeks ago was a majestic scene.
Now, the night sky was lit up with the secondary explosions of ships - his ships. What was once his proud Imperial Fleet was no more - barely a dozen ships survived the liberation intact, and the crews to close on two dozen ships have gained honour for them and their Named families.
His friend, the Lyran Admrial Red Paw, had died in the final moments on the liberation - he had warned him not to get too close, in his damaged DN - but honour was being gained - and Red Paw didn't want to lose out - and it costs him.
A Final pass by the remnents of the Kzinti navy had targted the vessel, and the Dreadnought exploded under the Drone, Disrupter and Phaser fire.
With rebuilding, his fleet will be great again - but never again will he put faith in those darn Romulan inherited Maulers - they failed 100% of the time, and the costs of that failure, will haunt Admiral K'Rang to his dying days.
Michael
The other PDU's died on turn 2, when I strongly attacked the hex.
It was a very close run thing in the end - the good dice rolling for the Kzinti continued.
Average rolls overall was -
VBIR 3.31, Coalition 3.12, Kzinti 4.06
To make matters worse - the right dice came at the right time - namely when Kzinti compot was high, William rolled well. Overall, the Kzinti did +40% damage.
Lastly, with all 3 Maulers failing their Shock Roll (somethng like a 3% chance of that!), my lucky really wasn't with me over 1401.
Drone Usuage
Klingons used 10 rounds of 4 points = 4 Ep's.
I think the Kzinti used I think 13 rounds of 8 points, and 2 rounds of 4 points = 11.2 Ep's
Other than not staying around to capture the hex - there was very little I could do I think, once the Dice gods had decided to have their fun.
Hopefully, the luck will balance out next turn!
Quote:Other than not staying around to capture the hex - there was very little I could do I think, once the Dice gods had decided to have their fun.
Okay, but if you didn't stay around to keep the hex, then the Shipyard is still intact. All you did was kill the SB, not the SY. However, you did destroy his ability to make conversions in his capital. Pity he can still substitute CVs.
It's got to be worth it losing all those ships for a turn 3 capture. Normally, you would be looking at turn 5 or six for such a coup. At the very least, that's 2 extra turns of Kzinti capital income put to the sword. Not to mention loss of repair capacity, free fighters, splintered supply grids, spending money on new shipyards - all the problems the Zin will have that are really not wanted so early on.
And while losing the cruisers is a blow, the salvage from them will make the repairs to follow more affordable.
Incidently, the Zin also lost 4 ships, and will lose another 8-10 or so next turn from lost production. Already, that's only a 5-7 swing to the Zin.
And without wishing to push it too far, losing no maulers in a capital assault is extremely useful for later on.
Michael - Sorry, should have been clearer - I captured the hex - so the Shipyard is destroyed.
So, William has to build a new one (and 90 shiny new Ep's down the drain )
David - thanks!
Do you want the bad news or the bads news first?
1 - We are only paying basic 2K - so no Salvage
2 - As currently 4 SB's remain, William will still be able to build a couple Frigates...
(Money might be an issue, and 1 SB is in a Partial grid with very little income, but I think William will be able to build 3 FF's).
But - no more free fighters for a while so, William is stuck with just 7 CV Groups and 5 CVL Groups for a while (plus Tug and CVE's)