Hi.


As you know, SFB and FC have a number of space monsters which can move alone or in groups, be they organic or artificial (or some other option no-one knows about yet) - and range from attacking convoy runs to isolated colonies all the way up to enagaging battle fleets and striking at major systems (as evidenced with Juggernaut Beta's assault on Arcturus, and the Star Snake which caused Paravia's home star to go nova) - leaving no empire untouched.


And yet, despite the large-scale efforts demonstrated in the efforts needed by the various sedantary powers to oppose attacks from the likes of Death Probes, Planet Killers, Juggernauts, Space Dragons and others, there is, as yet, no means of representing this military and logistical headache in Fed and Empire.

(I'm not just talking about the Grand Campaign here - smaller scenarios or ones focussed on specific corners of the Octant could potentially face a similar issue. Indeed, in some of the more storied monster attacks, such as the stand at Arcturus, the efforts to mobilise enough forces to counter the monter could itself be grounds for a mini-scenario, too.)


So, could there be counters created to represent this outer-space terrors, as well as rules by which a stellar empire (or empires) would have to try and prevent the monster(s) from causing havoc?


The likes of the Juggernaut (the original size class, as evidenced with Alpha and Beta, and possibly Gamma, as well as the two smaller models presented in Captain's Log), Death Probe, Planet Killer, a range of Space Dragons (from a juvenile up to an Ancient - counters which would have the handy side-effect of being useful for future Branthodon players!) and an Igneous could be chosen, and placed at random (or in the case of them showing up while there is a war on, a system could be devised where the opposing factions are equally inconvenienced by the monsters - whether it be by showing up behind each combatant's front lines, or by heading on a path of destruction towards that Neutral Zone planet your empires just happened to plan fighting over...)

One of the 'tricks' of countering certain monsters could be the need to use one or more scouts to determine a neams of either destroying it, or at least driving it away - or even the use of a Prme Team - which would have an effect on operations elsewhere.


These rules would be optional, of course, and there would be a number of cases where there is already enough on the players' minds without having to take on the odd Death Probe or Space Dragon brood - but, perhaps, it might be an interesting wild card to add to certain scenarios, should the players involved agree to it.


Does this sound like a semi-plausible idea?

By Douglass E. Howard (Doug_Howard) on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Yes.
Dragons popping up in cluthes/colonies, sun snakes taking out systems/affecting economies and growing in problem size if not properly dealt with... mind mosters etc destroying the odd stray ship ifnot dealt with right...

What about adding it as part of a plus/minus set of cards where "things happen" randomly to each player? sort of like each face card means something good or bad while numbered cards mean "no special events" etc.

For fixing the problem a simple chart might be:
Scout used +1
Squadron or larger sized force used +1
CA used +0
Less than a CA -1

Roll 1 d6:
1 Monster not defeated this turn full effect
2 Monster effects negated, monster not defeated
3-6 Monster defeated remove from play
7 Monster defeated, this player not ever affected by ths monster type again
8 Same as 7 plus all active monsters of this type affecting this player move directly to enemy of choice's nearest province (player option).

Effects of undefeated monsters could be sun snakes that devastate a hex/reproduce and move one each into adjacent hexes, "dead" ships" (mind monster) removed from play, destroyed ships plus disrupted provinces (creature that ate sheboygan II etc)...

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Hmmmm...random events cards. Sort of like Community Chest in Monopoly.... We may have something there!

I can see it now. You draw "Andromedan Dominator Visits Your Capital. It's been nice knowing you." EEEEK!

OR

"Your survey ships find a planet made of dilithium crystal. Add 20 EPs to your treasury."

But seriously, this idea has merit, if done judiciously.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 01:37 pm: Edit

You know there are entries all over the place of how all races had encounters with a Sun Snake, or Death Probe, or Igneous, (all from SPPs writeups about monsters in the CLs) throughout the General War, and before+after it too.

This should probably be a yearly event (well 1-3 it happens in spring, 4-6 it happens in fall) to roll on a chart (say a d12 or d10 for now, a straight percentage, not a bell-curve)

Igenous
Death Probe
Juggernaught
Adult Dragon
Dragon Swarm (say 3x as big)
Planetcrusher
Ameoba
etc

Then assign a AF-DF range for each monster (say the Ameoba has AF=4+1d6/6+1d6, the Death Probe is a 20-20 unit, the Juggernaught is a 25-25 unit, etc)

We'd have to figure out some fair way for these to effect every empire for their entry hexes/start locations (especially happening off-map for the Hydrans/Kzinti). Say you roll a die for each Empire when a monster appears in it's territory.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Okay!


Well, maybe the first port of call could be to work out the appropriate stats for each monster type, then figure out which, if any, special rules the monster needs (for example, how one could rep a Death Probe's ability to rapidly regenerate - or whether one needs to have a Prime Team and/or a ship with special sensors to engage a given monster) and then work out means by which to unleash them on an unsuspecting Octant!


(Scott, I was under the impression that the Death Probe was more powerful than a Juggernaut - or, at least, cost more in terms of BPV. However, maybe the two smaller, though still pretty big, Juggernauts in CL could be added, too - and if so, what do you suggest for those?)

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 04:21 pm: Edit

If a scout has a +1, then a SR must have a +2.
Modified by whether or not it's a CA size.

And what constitutes a squadron? A fully loaded SCS could probably take out a Juggernaut by itself without serious damage.

I think if something bad happens your opponent gets to say where it goes. After all, none of the historical monster encounters that I know of get intercepted by a entire fleet, and most of them get to kill off several colony worlds before the defending race even knows about them and can get something in the area. Yes, this does mean that a monster may appear in the middle of your FRD park, but you DO have a lot of ships there to fight it, don't you? And you can always put placement limitations on the monster cards themselves.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 07:39 pm: Edit

There were some playtest monster rules in an old issue of Starletter.

Space Dragons
Amoeba
Planet Crusher
Cosmic Cloud
Death Probe i think or Moray Eel
Juggernaut

By Pete Keller (Pete_Keller) on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 11:32 am: Edit

There are monsters in the Early Beginnings Scenario.

The monsters listed are Juggernaut, Moray Space Eel, Cosmic Cloud, Space Amoeba, Space Dragons, Mind Monster, Sun Snake, Star Swarms, Planet Crusher.

Pete

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 06:15 am: Edit

Orions could also be handled using random events. I think there are already some rulings around trying to do that, but nobody plays it.

But it would be nice to see *some* kind of random-event system so that would be painful for players who leave large tracts of space unpatrolled.

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 01:48 pm: Edit

But they don't leave those areas unpatrolled.....those areas are full of police ships.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 08:52 am: Edit

Police ships are not a good deterrent to Orions and monsters when alone. Indeed, your average orion CR captain would be able to do a lot of damage to a convoy of 2-3 freighters + a POL. Sure, there are national guard as well, but nothing deters like a full fleet protrolling its zone.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 04:31 pm: Edit

EB has monster/encounter rules.
Many are taken from the descriptions in SFB and some from CL stuff like the Jindarians. (Ask me how I know. )

We have in the new rules of EB IIRC Juggernaut, Star Swarm, Cosmic Cloud, Mind Monster, Space Amoeba, Moray Eel, Planet Crusher, Jindarian Caravan, Andro Event, Space Dragons, and Sunsnake.

All of them could be added to F&E as a playtest. They are currently rolled for at the start of the turn and only happen on a very slim chance. Of course in EB we have also added them as a survey event possibility as well.

By Pete Keller (Pete_Keller) on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Lar,

I agree, we should settle on a standardized set of monsters.

Pete

By Douglass E. Howard (Doug_Howard) on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Appearance could be set by sheer random chance.

Either:
Make a table listing each provinces center hex.
Random roll for # of monsters, then types of monsters then roll for which province gets each monster.

Or:
Track percentages of the board owned by each race. Roll for # of monsters, then types of monsters then percentile roll for each one to go to random province of the lucky race.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 05:06 pm: Edit

Lawrence - do you have a range of stats for different Space Dragons, or if not which Space Dragon size class does your current set of stats cover?

I'm thinking that the Andromedans may be best left for Andro War, and I'm not sure about the Jindarians - but most of the rest could be fine.

And I really would like to have as wide a variety of Dragons as we can - and not just so I can steal them for Branthodons!

Honest.

(Still not sure what stats the two smaller Juggernauts from CL should be - any thoughts?)

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 08:59 pm: Edit

Yeah, the rules we fooled with have different levels of dragons based on age from Young, Adult, Old, Ancient. We have a rule for Dragon Nest which is like hitting a base that has zero attack factors but is defended buy the young and at least one adult dragon. You cant just pop it either, you need to do a few SIDS so the plan is you either kill the dragons or the (base) nest but take a bit of damage along the way...in EB the timing will depend how badly this hurts you.

The Jindos were adapted from the rules published in the CL and have worked well in both of the scenarios we played with them.

Andros we have and they are nasty. We have Both the Sat Ships as fighter factors (for the NPR Andros) and we have them as separate ships that deploy into the BF like a squadron of PFs would for the Player Race Andros. They work great both ways and the guys from California did a great job adapting what SVC has given as early playtest rules for them. I just hope some of that input lasts long enough to one day be discussed with the group that does the work on Andro War (or whatever it will be called).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Funnily enough, the Branthodons put all of their bases - even starbases - on planets, since they can't build much in the way of orbital facilities, and their dragonships can land anyway.

(Hate to be sitting under the landing spot of an Ancient, though!)


Also, I can't quite recall, but do wild Space Dragon have rules for Baby Dragons, the way Branthodons do for Baby Dragonships?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 02:26 pm: Edit

In more recent years since this thread was last added to, there have been additional Juggernaut Empire warship SSDs presented in various issues of Captain's Log, along with new fiction and scenarios featuring them. And, I should add, a set of Omni Scale Juggernaut Empire miniatures have been made available on the Shapeways storefront. While not quite reaching the point at which one might see the Juggernauts evolve into a "true" playable empire the way the Andromedans would be - or, perhaps, to the point where spinning the Juggernauts out of this generic "monster" proposal thread into their own dedicated topic might be worth doing - this at least leaves the door ajar for further steps to be taken in that overall direction.

For example, Captain's Log #41 includes the Fire in the Deep fiction piece, plus its associated SFB scenario [(SL288.0)], in which the Seltorian Hive Ship Star of Redemption - sent to pursue a Tholian exile group fleeing to some as-yet-unknown galaxy - instead finds itself dealing with successive waves of Juggernauts traveling in the opposite direction.

To clarify, the scenario notes indicate that, while the Star of Redemption historically existed, and reportedly encountered a series of powerful warships while heading towards its target galaxy, it's as yet unclear as to whether these were in fact Juggernaut ships, or if they might have been some entirely different foe. Nonetheless, if one wished to use the Seltorian data from Minor Empires to help playtest a set of would-be Juggernaut Empire rules for F&E, a mini-campaign based around the Fire in the Deep material might be a handy means of doing so.

On a side note, the SFB scenario in question has the Seltorian ships replace their shield crackers with phaser-1s [see (SL288.46)], as they had learned after the first battle with the Juggernauts that shield crackers are of little to no use against Juggernaut Empire warships. While this would see the "B" factors removed from the affected Seltorian ships, I'm doubtful that the added phaser-1s would be enough to warrant a change to each hull's "standard" listed offensive factor.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 06:35 pm: Edit

That would depend on how many Ph-1s were added, looking at the D6/D7 difference, 2 PH-1s is about 1 AF added …

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 07:00 pm: Edit

The swap-out is on a one-to-one basis, so a Seltorian heavy cruiser would replace 2 FA web breakers with 2 FA phaser-1s.

That said, the Seltorian CA is already a 9-8B/4B combat factor ship (as marked on the Seltorian SIT), so upping it to 10-8/5-4 might make it a tad too strong relative to what one is getting in SFB terms.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Another question (at least in my ever screwey mind) is whether the Seltorians would be willing to sacrafice Web Breakers, the weapons that enabled them to bring down the hated Tholians, just because of these Juggernauts.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 07:44 pm: Edit

In the accompanying fiction piece, the commanding Admiral wanted the web breakers to be swapped out with particle cannons, though his engineers were unable to make that work.

Bear in mind that, unlike the "lost" technology in the Tholian Holdfast, the Hive Ship would retain the capacity to build more web breakers, in the event that they survived long enough to actually find some Tholians. So they would likely be able to re-install the WBs back in their old mounts as and when required.

Also, if the fiction story is to be believed, the Juggernauts had already destroyed the Tholians which the Star of Redemption had been pursuing. However, the Admiral was ordered to confirm this before being given permission to return to the home galaxy. (Or, just as likely, the Tribunal HQ back in M81 was willing to write the Star off as an "acceptable loss" if it came to that, and then simply send another task force in that same direction.)

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, March 06, 2020 - 12:13 am: Edit

Of course.

The fiction.

Ya know, as often as I seem to put my foot in my mouth with these knee-jerk posts, it's a wonder I haven't come down with terminal Athelete's Toungue yet...

()

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, May 27, 2021 - 07:57 pm: Edit

One possible way to handle the wrong weapon situation of the Seltorians against Juggernauts may be to do something similar to the EW rules with the square root of the number of ships improperly armed producing a die roll effect against them.

Just a thought.