This is the first F&E game I have played where I felt that complaints about the dice had justice. In theory, David's solution has merit. In practice, it is generally not needed as they balance out on their own.

The other thing is, even if we did set something like that up, they could still be unfair by going one way in the big battles and the other way in the small ones.

If we did something like that suggestion, I would suggest adding six new rolls to the bag every time the six old ones had been used, so the bag was never anywhere near empty.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 08:28 am: Edit

Michael

It would slow the game down slightly...but the computer 5,000 miles away will still know that it needs to roll 3 points higher on Williams dice...

Don't ask me how - it just will!

Generally, the dice roller (I have used it for something like 6 years now I think) is fairly random and 'fair' - but in this game, just hasn't.

I can't explain it - but the facts are there.

'Limited Roll' system
We could play with recording what the rolls are - and once say X 1's have been rolled in say 50 dice, ignore any further 1's (and re-roll them) until 50 valid rolls have been made.

(X could be say 10, and would cover all numbers, so you still could get good or bad roll runs, but it would be more restricted)

Would slow the game down slightly, but might work.

Any way, I am a positive person, so from tonight my luck will improve.

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 08:29 am: Edit

What dice roller/server are you using?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 08:33 am: Edit

On dice, we have all seen very good luck or very bad luck.

In Empires in Arms - a friend out thought the enemy (France v Spain) and only a 1 for each battle round wouldn't win the battle. He rolled 3 1's.

In a different game of EIA, I out thought my enemy, yet they rolled tripple 6 to not only win - but destroy my army in persuit.

In Full Thrust (Space Battle Figure game) - I had a friend who could always roll the right dice at the right time (and generally that was 'always') - but at other games, his dice throwing was normal.

In most dice games - I roll reasonably well (Rail Baron is the only dice game, I generally roll badly in - game in, game out) - and sometimes, very well, and for reasonable periods of time - occasionaly I am even called lucky with dice!

But this game has got me stumped!

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Paul / William:

Another option would be to have a third party construct an excel spreadsheet populated with random numbers 1-6 in a very large number of cells, and then black-fill the cells. Each of you gets a copy of the spreadsheet, and when someone needs to roll dice, you say which unrevealed cells you are using. Both players un-fill the cells, and get to see the same numbers.

Requires that both players be trustworthy, but I am assuming that is the case.

Cheers,
Jason

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Well . . .

Normally, when someone complains about luck, I think whatever dude, it will be the opposite way tomorrow. The thing about this game is, that hasn't happened. In today's battles, I had absurdly good luck yet again.

I have never seen anything like it.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 12:00 am: Edit

Alliance turn 8 is done.

I am not gonna do a detailed summary, but here are the highlights:

Alliance continued to roll unreasonably well. As a result of this, the Feds killed a MB setup they probably should not have killed. They also killed an FRD (which did not depend on the rolls).

As Paul has been trying to send major forces tot he Hydran front, the Hydrans left significant fleets in forward positions in Klingon space. They also killed 2 BATS and an FRD and conquered planet 1112 (but are not likely to hold it for long). Because of the Hydran non-retro, a Coalition attack into Hydran space is possible.

Kzinti liberated two planets and for the first time in ages left a bunch of their fleets in forward positions.

Feds did retro to bases, and two of their reserves are in position to support the Kzinti.

Also, a strat pathway magically opened up, and the Feds were able to send the Kzinti 2.75EP (all they had left after CEDS).

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 04:52 am: Edit

World in flames sorta fixed the problem. They switch from 1D10 to 2D10 combat systems. It's amazing how much you can make the results more predictable that way while still being able to have a wild result.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 07:08 am: Edit

Correction: the Feds sent 1.25EP to the Kzinti. At least it's something . . .

The thing is, in F&E, there should not be a "problem" that needs "fixing". This game is an outlier.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 - 09:48 am: Edit

Above summary should have said:

"As Paul has been trying NOT to send major forces to the Hydran front, the Hydrans left significant fleets in forward positions in Klingon space . . ."

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, October 02, 2008 - 07:48 am: Edit

Well, the end of Alliance Turn 8 improved for the Coalition...but not by much.

Alliance average was 3.75
Coalition average was 3.29

Again though, the timing of the dice made the difference.

In the one battle I wanted the Hydrans to roll well in (and we both picked BIR 4!) - the dice was 1 1 1! (I wanted to Self Kill a BATS and FRD, as the tactical situaton was forcing the Hydrans to retreat, so if I retreated after he declined, he would have been stuck there).

At least 1 of the 6's rolled by me was irrelevant, as I had insuffucient damage to do more than just kill fighters.

and at the smaller battles, William always rolled enough to get what he needed.

At the main battle, when a RN would have diced with a reasonable roll (possibly even a 2 would have sufficed)...once more I rolled a 1!

About the only good news was that the Hydrans used 2 Command Points for a 1 round battle (William had to win the battle) - and the fact I captured a TR. Coalition are ahead on capture rolls.

Coalition Turn 8 has started...where the rolling ended.

Lyrans averaged 4 on their survey roll. Klingons averaged 2!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, October 04, 2008 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Well, Operational Movement has ended.

Hydran Theatre - The Coalition have manouved to hit the outer Hydran ships...and in revenge attack for the devastation of 1112, Coalition ships once more vists 617!

Kzinti Theatre - Coalition counter attacker everywhere (bar 1 fleet in 1104, which hopefully will be cut off from supply!)

Northern Federation Front - Nothing - Klingon forces have withdraw from the area, due to superior Federation Forces.

Central Federation Front - Klingons attack to the South West and South East of Sol.

Southern Federation Front - No action

2 Alliance reserves are currently pinned, leaving 6 Alliance Reserves to react.

By Peter Hill (Corwin) on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 09:28 am: Edit

William Jockusch (September 18):
One other tidbit -- the Feds have towed their 3rd fleet FRD to the Barony. If the Feds are able to use it to repair Kzinti ships, it amounts to a hidden delivery of EPs to them.

Good if you can get it (I think)! Does an under-the-table ep transfer unbalance things or is it a legitimate tactic?

Michael Lui (September 18):
The Feds can use it to repair Kzinti ships. Have some more fun with it, declare it part of an Expeditionary fleet and move it into the Kzinti off-map area.

Better still send a Fed MB and a flock of FRD's to the Barons. Set up the MB as a satellite stockpile and keep it pumped by the Feds cash. Pay the 1ep each turn to 'supply' the FRD's and use the remaining cash to repair all Kziniti cripples. Since the money is Fed money spent at Fed FRDs it's not limited!

By Peter Hill (Corwin) on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 09:32 am: Edit

Ooops. Not allowed to build bases in an ally's off-map area. So much for that theory. :-(

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 10:02 am: Edit

What's the big deal? Klingons and Lyrans repair each other's ships all the time . . .

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 10:04 am: Edit

Peter

Correct on the MB - Allied bases are not allowed in Off Map Areas.

Allied Repair of ships though is 100% allowed - and indeed the Coalition does it very well - Lyran Cash and FRD's and crippled Klingon hulls.

There is no limit (other than Repair Capacity and Ep's) on repairs you do for an ally - and indeed, until William destroyed most of the Lyran FRD's - the Lyrans was spending about 20 Ep's a turn repairing Klingon Hulls (and if they had the money, could send up to 20 Ep's to the Klingons via Ep transfer).

The only downside of your Allied repairing your ships, is that you don't get free Strategic Movement on your own Network (IIRC)!

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Yes, but a Fed FRD in the Kzinti off-map area gives them an extra unassailable repair point within 6 hexes of ALL Kzinti space. Tactically and Strategically valuable. And you don't need to be able to move the repaired ships strategically if you plan ahead a little.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Right, the only tricky thing is it's useless without supply. So its value or lack thereof depends on whether or not the FedZinti are able to maintain the supply line from the Barony to Earth.

It helps that it's often enough to have a supply line during their retro phase as this will allow them to use it for CEDS.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 08:40 am: Edit

And even then, it's only any use if the Federation don't spend their money on 'essential' war material. (Soft Loo Roll and pet food doesn't come cheap you know!).

Meanwhile, on the real war front... the dice continue to favour the Alliance.

So far, in two battles, the Coalition has precisly rolled enough to kill all the enemy fighters and be 1 point short of forcing the enemy to cripple anything - while a good roll for the Alliance saw the destruction of a Lyran
crippled BC and a Klingon FV!

Losses so far (entire Kzinti and Federation Fronts) -

Klingons D5, FV - plus cripples
Lyrans BC and FF - plus cripples
Kzinti - DD plus Cripples
Federation NCL, DD and BATS - plus cripples.

The Alliance also retained 2 of the 3 planets they captured!

As expected - only the Dukes Fleet is cut off (5 Ships) and the Marquis area remains connected to the Barony).

Hydran front battles should commence on Thursday night!

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 11:16 pm: Edit

Coalition turn 9 is done.

Absurdity continues, as I yet again rolled insanely well, while he continues to roll insanely poorly . . .

Why are we not surprised?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 04:02 am: Edit

The dice continue to be unbelievable - ignoring getting the right roll at the right time - Coalition Average on the Hydran front was 2.7 v Hydran Average of 3.9.

I really thought with the Hydrans being aggresively deployed, I could do some real damage - yet once more, they got away with it.

The dice I think saved 3 Hydran ships, and cost me 1 ship more than it should have done (and again, several less cripples for me,and more cripples for the Hydrans, plus stopped any chance of a raid on the Hydran Capital Planet).

What is so annoying against the Hydrans, is constantly I roll 1 point less than the damage needed to either direct cripple or force a self crippling (example - I face 3 x HR and will do 12 damage - not enough to direct and with 9 fighters to take damage on, insufficent is left to get to the 50% damage level) - so I am wasting a huge amount of damage!

Main details from the Hydran Front

Lyran losses STT, plus stacks of cripples
Klingon losses F5E, plus stacks of cripples
Hydran losses Battle Tug, LB, RN, CU, several cripples, 3 Command Points used and 3 planets (1 Major, 2 Minor) re-devastated in 617.

The Hydran 2nd Fleet (17 ships strong, but full of fighters) is Out of Supply in 1013 - so atleast that will slow his counterattack down this tuirn (about the only part of the plan which worked - mainly due to the fact it didn't involve any dice!).

As far as I can tell, the Coalition have had 1 1/2 good turns on the dice, and the rest have been good/amazing dice for the Alliance (and the yet turns 6,7,8 and 9 have been even better than that for the Alliance). Hopefully, my luck has to change - it just does!

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 10:45 am: Edit

I think it's fair to say that Paul's dice correlate perfectly with the Dow Jones . . .

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 01:23 pm: Edit

Paul, I suggest:

You suspend all offensive operations.

Pull all forces back to the pre-war borders.

Offer war reparations to the Alliance.

And beg the Organians very very nicely to stop playing with your dice!

By Ezekiel P. Carpenter-Hyland (Admiral_Zekedak) on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 04:33 pm: Edit

A good approach is for the Coalition is to set up battles where dice do not matter. If your objectives will only be reached 50% of the time (you roll a 4-6), then don't pick that objective. The above example serves to further this point. If you can not come away from a battle exchanging ships for fighters and still achieving your goals, then don't fight that battle. A bad roll should not matter.

Never fight battles you don't have to. Never fight battles when the outcome is anything but a given. Let the other poor bastard die for his empire.

Then again, one might put out a very limited number of forces into risky operations when the gains far exceed their loss. These may even be -to the death- ventures. In such case, you should never gripe over the sacrifice of true warriors.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 05:32 am: Edit

Ezekiel

Although thats a valid tactic - on that basis, I don't think either side would get anywhere.

And please also remember, these objectives are not 'hard' - (such as kill a SB or capture a Major planet) most of them have been - fight a single round (having pinned the enemy with force A, so force B can get to the target) or pick up a single enemy ship which was garrison duty.

You have to accept the occasionaly (or several) 'bad luck' rolls, but to be constantly outrolled for 7 1/2 of the 9 turns, is just 'amazing/unbeleivable' - and the timing of the dice (i.e. if 3 followed by 4 results in 2 crippled ships, but 4 followed by 3 results in only only 1 crippled - guess what I have being doing??).

It wouldn't be too bad with poor Coalition rolling - but added to above average Alliance rolling just makes it even more painful.

But my luck will change.