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	Archive through January 13, 2009	25		01/17 01:18pm

This has all been hashed out before....not sure if you have had the time to find it all but here are the items from 2004 to present.
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By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 11:29 pm: Edit

Kevin Howard: During pursuit, the pursuer designates their force first, rolls to see if the pursuit is successful, and *then* the retreater forms his own battleforce.

However, as the battle is fought semi-normally, I would assume that both battleforces are revealed simultaneously. Yes, you'd know how many ships are in the pursuing force, but not what they are until both forces are revealed.

However, Jimi suggested that when the pursuer designates his force, he also reveals the exact composition, allowing the retreater to form his force after seeing the pursuer.

So, does the pursuer have to reveal his battleforce first, or do both battleforces get revealed simultaneously?

ANSWER: I believe it is secret and simultaneous like other battle rounds. See (307.1) which says "both sides will form a new battle force and may fight a final Combat Round." So even though the retreating player ALWAYS creates a "pursued" battle force, the pursuer may miss the die roll and no battle will happen.

If you played it the other way if the pursuer missed the die roll the retreating player would not create another battleforce and the rules say otherwise.

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By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:18 pm: Edit

Geof Clark: I've got a question about retreat after pursuit. After 2 rounds of combat, we had a Klingon defender retreat, and was pursued unsuccessfully by the Hydrans. The Hydrans then wanted to retreat from the hex. Is this legal?

According to 307, the pursuit battle is conducted just as a normal battle, in terms of retreat afterwards, but our group has a feeling that no retreat after pursuit is the standard rule. Please clarify this for us.

ANSWER: Geoff, check out the first paragraph of rule (307.1). Also rule (302.713). Pursuit happens after retreat is announced for both players, and if both sides declare retreat then there is no pursuit. In order to be able to pursue, you must not have declared retreat for your side. At that point you perform the pursuit battle round, then the side that previously announced retreat does so, and the side that pursued takes possession of the hex. There is not another option to retreat.

(307.4), last paragraph, says that after the pursuit battle retreat proceeds without further pursuit. This means you finish performing the earlier declared retreat, you don't go through another round of retreat opportunities for both sides.

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By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:54 am: Edit

Paul Howard: How does 307.1 work, when the defender uses 'Opposed Withdrawal before Combat'?
Do you immediately do a persuit battle (6 persuing ships v withdrawn forces)? What happens if a base exists?

.....the only logical thing I can think of is that the crippled withdrawing ships are added back into the retreating force after the one or more rounds of battle have been fought (so therefore generating a persuit battle, even if no cripples was taken in the battle!).

ANSWER: Modifiying my original answer here a bit (the part about combining withdrawn and retreating ships for pursuit was bogus):

When you have a withdrawing force, the opposing player may pursue (if the withdrawal was not opposed then there is no pursuit). This pursuit battle is done vs the withdrawing ships only and is done before regular combat. Then the withdrawing forces retreat a hex. Then you do regular combat with all remaining ships in the battle hex. If after regular combat the defenders retreat their remaining ships there could be a second pursuit round, after which the retreating force retreats to the same hex that the withdrawn ships went to earlier. If there is a planet/base present at the time in question there can of course be no pursuit rounds (but you can still oppose the withdrawal). Also if there are no crippled ships in the withdrawing/retreating force there is of course no pursuit of that force. Rule (307.1) says you can pursue after any retreat including withdrawal before combat. The Advanced Ops sequence of play step 5-1F says that you may have a pursuit round after withdrawal but before regular combat, and then you may of course have a regular pursuit round after regular combat.

Note: This was further clarified as being not the case and official clarification was published in CL34 (see below).
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Dave Butler: Specifically, doesn't (302.16) contradict the ruling? If the ships aren't even in the hex at the time of persuit, how can they be persued?

ANSWER: This is the part I screwed up. You don't wait until the end of combat to pursue crippled ships withdrawn before combat, you have an earlier pursuit round before regular combat and before the withdrawing ships retreat to their new hex, as shown in the rule and the sequence of play.

Note: This was further clarified as being not the case and official clarification was published in CL34 (see below).
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By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, February 09, 2008 - 04:40 pm: Edit

CL34 QUESTIONS & ANSWERS by Nick Blank

Q: If crippled ships that withdraw before combat are pursued, are the ships that pursue them able to return and participate in further combat rounds with the units in the hex that did not withdraw, or are they considered out of the fight for the rest of the turn?

A: Rule (307.1) says pursuit always takes place in Step 8 of the Combat Procedure, and can be done after any retreat, including opposed withdrawal. So this means that even though the force withdrew crippled ships at the start of combat, you only get to pursue in the normal step after the regular combat sequence. Then you do one pursuit of the withdrawn crippled ships plus any other crippled ships that are retreating. You do not pursue the withdrawn cripples before combat and then possibly another pursuit after combat, you only have one pursuit step for all retreating crippled units. This happens even though the retreat hex itself was chosen in the withdraw step rather than the retreat step. If you retreat yourself, you cannot pursue at all, neither the withdrawn crippled ships nor any crippled ships that may be retreating normally.
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Seems fairly clear now even through the contradiction in its explanation from 7/2005 to the appearance of CL34 (and a horse well beaten) unless the SOP has been changed again since CL34. You may now return to the salvage rule discussion.

I would say your confusion surrounding this has been noted for the warbook (indirectly through the questions it has brought about in Q&A) but that none of 'this' discussion will ever find it's way there since this is a proposal topic. Until that time you will have to check/read the CL rule updates or the online archive file. Miraculously it was not difficult to search for this time as long as you dont use any words. I found thes search for (307.1) exclusively. This further reinforces the requirement for you to use rule numbers in your Q&A when you post there.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Thank you Lar. Now I'm REALLY confused.

P.S. I think this needs to make it into the errata somehow. Stuff like this gets lost if its just in the rulings section of Captains Logs.

By Todd E Jahnke (Tej) on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Salvage:

A ship that is destroyed during a combat round may yield salvage to either or neither player. A ship destroyed while pursued or out of supply never yields salvage to its owning empire and a ship that is eligible to be salvaged by an enemy empire does not yield salvage if it would be out of supply from the enemy empire while in the current hex. A ship that is captured yields no salvage to either side. A ship otherwise yields salvage to its owning empire unless the an enemy roll for capture during that combat round missed a successful capture by one pip. If a capture roll is missed by one pip, determine randomly which ship is "almost captured" and yields its salvage to the enemy empire. A ship cannot be both captured and salvaged during a single combat round (maulers may provide a second capture roll); if only one ship is destroyed and it is captured, then there is no salvage, otherwise determine the captured ship first and then the salvaged ship from the remaining candidates.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 10:39 pm: Edit

The game has enough die rolls as it is. We don't need another die roll to another rule.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Thanks Lars

Kosta - I can see why your confused.

Basically, the rules stated one thing - this was questioned, and confirmed to be correct by FEAR. i.e. Immediate persuit battle - and normal persuit battle at the end of the battle.

SVC then clarified the rule, to mean that it meant the opposite - i.e. No actual retreat until the end and then a single persuit battle.

I didn't notice this clarification either so Lars post helped me!

By Todd E Jahnke (Tej) on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Thomas,

That is exactly why it is a die roll that is already being made. The proposal wraps salvage into capture, it doesn't create any new die rolls. It does, however, make it possible to effectively capture ships that are too badly damaged to repair.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 08:50 pm: Edit

There is no roll for salvage. Only for Depot Level Repair. under the proposed rule change to (439.16) there would be no Depot Level Repair as the victor would get the salvage value.

By Todd E Jahnke (Tej) on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 08:59 pm: Edit

I was making a different proposal: use the die roll for capture to indicate whether the enemy gets any salvage. It is independent of any other proposal on the topic, not combined with any of them.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 03:38 pm: Edit

Additional rule for victor receiving salvage.

(439.XX)Salvage cannot be received if the a raiding force destroys the defending unit and that unit is the only unit in the hex. Salvage can be received by the non raiding force if there are units in the hex or friendly units in an adjacent hex.

The reasoning for this is that the raiding force is conducting a hit and run raid and would not have enough time to conduct a search and recovery for salvage.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Don't have my rulebook handy, but I'm fairly certain a rule exists to that effect.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 10:27 pm: Edit

It very probably does Joe, I just don't recall seeing it in a very obvious place. This one is in addition to the above with regards to "killing" all units in a hex.