I don't think there really is a mauler or carrier problem. Without carriers the Kzinti's would be out of the war by turn 5 against most players and by turn 4 against a very smart coalition.

With the coalition, the maulers really offset the advantage the Kzintis have in carriers. The big difference is that carriers come in different flavors. Maulers only have 2 flavors. Smart use of maulers can and will help the coalition win key battles, but not the war. Smart use of carriers can turn a close battle into victory, but really good use of them can help win the war.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Mauler come in more than 2 flavors; limited of course; but more than two. And oddly enough there is even "other side" flavors of maulers (well they are not 'really' maulers but they play one on the map).

"there is no such thing as a snozberry!"

Wasn't that the Gorn nickname for the DNT?...or maybe that was "CrunchBerry".

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 11:56 pm: Edit

I was thinking of the 10 pt and 7 pt varieties.

I don't include the conjectural alliance maulers.

X-ships are different altogether.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 11:25 am: Edit

So I take it there isn't much support for my proposals?

Awright, awright, I can take a hint. Back to the AWC clubhouse to see what else we can cook up.

By jason murdoch (Jmurdoch) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Didnt GOD say something about leaving maulers alone?
Like tinkering with CEDS any changes will have a huge effect in the way people play the game.
On the plus side for two potential rule changes we get a brand new game for free

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 01:48 pm: Edit

The way I see it...

Using a mauler when you are being pursued usually makes a nonsense of the pursuit. The pursuer almost always loses a cruiser while perhaps bagging a crippled cruiser in return. This makes pursuing BAD for Hydrans, and almost entirely stops them pursuing until they have big carrier groups. I think this is highly cheesy.

While I understand that the mauler CAN manouever, it still has to go range 5 centrelined to do the thing its meant to do with any real effect (range 10 is not much good with a mauler). That is a BAD position when you are being pursued.

At the very least, I would suggest that in a pursuit suituation, if the mauler fails its shock roll, it's automatically destroyed rather than just crippled. Crippled and 5 hexes from an enemy pursuing you should be a point of no return.

By Trent Telenko (Ttelenko) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 02:30 pm: Edit

Maulers come in the following power ratings:

1) 14 point -- Gorn DNT
2) 12 Point -- Lyran DN mauler
3) 10 point -- most CA hulled maulers; All races CCX, CX, NCX; & Fed DDX
4) 9 point -- NCA hulled maulers & DDX/DWX
5) 8 point -- Some SC-4 X-ships
6) 7 point -- CW hulled maulers, some SC-4 X-ships.
7) 6 Point -- Smallest SC-4 X-ships including Tholian PCX and ISC FFX

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 03:07 pm: Edit

David, although I agree with you, the majority here seems to think that it is either perfectly reasonable or at the very least not important enough to risk unbalancing the game.

And I would love to try the SFB scenario that has a Paladin, Lord Marshall, 2 Dragoons and 2 Rangers chasing down a Klingon fleet with a D7C, D7, D6M and oodles of cripples.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Further to my above scenario:

In F&E, The Hydran fleet has 70 attack factors. Let's assume the "oodles of cripples" include a C8 as flagship in the protected slot plus 7 other D7/D6/D5 cruisers (you could have a gazillion other ships that are not in the battle force). That gives the Klingons 51 attack factors.

Both sides roll 30% damage. The Hydrans do 21, enough to bag the C8 for 18 (leaving 3 for the Klingons - maybe killing a crippled F5 or crippling the D7). Or they can destroy 2 cruisers for 16 (leaving 5 for the Klingons). The Klingons do 15 - enough to bag one of the cruisers and kill a fighter.

Under these (typical) circumstances - why would the Hydrans ever bother to pursue? Losing one of their precious cruisers in return for a crippled C8 or 2 D7s is just not worth it.

By John de Michele (Johnad) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 05:15 pm: Edit

It sounds like your Hydran admiral needs to be retired. If Hydran cruisers are so valuable, why are they being put in a situation where they can be risked? Why not send something far more expendable, like some CWs?

John.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 05:17 pm: Edit

I think in summary Kosta - nope, not enough support.

Although I think a good arguement could be made that Maulers are too powerful in persued forces, several people have equally made good arguements against it - as it is 'hard wired' into the game, and getting a fair 'cost' for this probably lies between impossible and a miracle needed!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 05:23 pm: Edit

John

As without an enemy mauler - you could fairly easily persue without the risk of a hull dying!

Coalition would need 16 damage just to cripple a CA - and 24 to kill - nearly impossible with just 50 compot!

Is SFB - would you want to 'run slowly' from a just a dozen or so Stingers?

Possibly whats needed is a Stinger Bonus against Maulers, Slow Ships and Penal Ships?

By Michael Lui (Michaellui) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 05:27 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

At the very least, I would suggest that in a pursuit situation, if the mauler fails its shock roll, it's automatically destroyed rather than just crippled. Crippled and 5 hexes from an enemy pursuing you should be a point of no return.

---

---

Quote:

A mauler (or any ship with a shock rating) used by a pursued force in the pursuit battle is killed instead of being crippled if it fails its shock roll from using its special abilities.

---

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 07:23 pm: Edit

"not important enough to risk unbalancing the game"

Ta dah!


Breaking the game over asthetics, to me, is madness.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 07:25 pm: Edit

"Under these (typical) circumstances - why would the Hydrans ever bother to pursue? Losing one of their precious cruisers in return for a crippled C8 or 2 D7s is just not worth it. "


In your example, you killed the C8, not a cruiser.

If you don't see the value of losing a cruiser to bag a Klingon (not Lyran) DN, then I can't help you.

You can make all sorts of scenarios where the result in SFB combat and F&E combat won't be exactly the same, even leaving out maulers, so the point is weightless.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Agree with Joe there. Killing a C8 should be worth it.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 10:17 am: Edit

But if there's not a C8 to kill, then it's not worth pursuing.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Yeah, the conclusion I've come to is don't pursue if there is an intact mauler around, unless there is something worth losing a Hydran cruiser for. The C8 may qualify. Dispatching a crippled carrier likely would. I'm not sure if killing a crippled mauler would.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 06:45 pm: Edit

"I'm not sure if killing a crippled mauler would. "


1, probably not. 2 or more? Yes.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, March 14, 2009 - 08:46 pm: Edit

2 or more crippled maulers? I'd probably pursue with the intent to try and kill all of them I can.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 04:55 am: Edit

I think your overstating what the Alliance can do agaisnt a Competent Coalition player.

Even the Hydrans (who risk a cruiser in exchange) on average will only get 1 cruiser (70 compot say, 30% damage = 21, less any owed)...or if they are lucky a 2nd cruiser

The other Alliance members, should get 1 cruiser - in exchange for an escort (say 50 compot at the same 30% will only get 15 damage) - although with poor dice...might miss it (say 7 owed and 22.5% damage roll with 50).

So if there are 3 cripples maulers to be persued.. chances of killing 2 is slim.....and near on impossible for anyone but the Hydrans.

(Although, the chance of killing 1 is higher if 2 are crippled - otherwise a crippled Mauler in form might live!)

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 08:19 am: Edit

20 pts of damage and if there are 2 crippled maulers and a crippled DN in the fleet, what are you going to put in the form bonus? Also the pursuing player can direct on anything not included in the battleforce.

I'd be happy to trade a cruiser for a DN and a Mauler or 2 Maulers.

You can protect one ship, but you can't protect everything of value.

By jason murdoch (Jmurdoch) on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Going to SFB mechanics is it not the fact that a mauler is a set of engines and HUGE numbers of batteries that allow it to win any tractor auction that provides the capture bonus. The actual mauler cannon doesnt come into it

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Thomas

20 pts of net damage - what are you persuing with?

Assuming the persuer picks BIR 4 and persued 1, average rolls are 27.5% (3) or 30% (4).

Outside the Hydrans - about the best you can get is a Fed force(4CVA, DN+ and CVL is 59) and so with a competent Coalition commander with say -6 or -7 points, until X-Ships arrive - the best you will ever get is a crippled mauler (as 60 compot is only 18 damage at 30%).

Lucky dice might make you get a second mauler - but equally, poor dice might mean you end up with nothing (the same 60 compot, 40% will get 2 maulers, and 22.5% will only get 14, nets (at worse) down to 7. So with BIR 5, 40% needs VBIR to go up two and a roll of 6, 22.5% is no change to VBIR and a roll of 1 - so far more likely to happen!

In other words with a good persuit force (60 compot), a competent Coalition player can mean you have 1/6 chance of not getting a single Mauler (or C8), and only a 1/36 chance of losing 2 Maulers!

Or are you assuming the persuer will always roll at least 40% to get it's two targets, or the Coalition player retreats with no owed points?

(Either way, if the Alliance retreated on the same basis, they would be losing entire crippled CV groups, so hardly a fair assumption to make)

In other words, against anyone outside of the Hydrans (and they risk bigger ships to increase their success chance), it's a falacy that the Coalition have a reasonable chance of losing 2 maulers in a persued force, until X-Ships arrive.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 04:09 pm: Edit

"Lucky dice might make you get a second mauler - but equally, poor dice might mean you end up with nothing (the same 60 compot, 40% will get 2 maulers, and 22.5% will only get 14, nets (at worse) down to 7. So with BIR 5, 40% needs VBIR to go up two and a roll of 6, 22.5% is no change to VBIR and a roll of 1 - so far more likely to happen! "

Yeah, Paul. That's honest. (sic)

You know, BEFORE rolling for pursuit, if there are any minus points. It's ALWAYS the case that minus points might make pursuit less valuable.


"Or are you assuming the persuer will always roll at least 40% to get it's two targets, or the Coalition player retreats with no owed points? "

Like you assuming there will always be 7 minus points?