Thomas - I would also point out that a Mobile Base has no Repair Boxes on it, and thus, through SFB, cannot perfrom the FnE scale repair functions at all. Same with Operation Bases.

Thus, it appears to me that the repair capacity of those units already assumes the presence of a Repair Module/Pod attached to such a unit and it would be unneccessary to create a new rule for an already integrated function.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 06:08 am: Edit

Jon, you are correct in that the first two modules used in the construction of a Mobile Base have no repair boxes on them. However the SFB description (R1.24A) states that the MB can be used as a repair point with the presence of a repair pod and 2 repair modules (R1.32B). The repair pod can currently be subsumed in the cost of the Mobile Base. The presence of the repair modules could then give the MB the ability to repair ships on the F&E level.

The SSD for a repair module is 6 repair boxes and 6 cargo boxes + crew units to run the repair facilities.

As you can see from the chart above 1 repair module adds roughly 3% to the ratio of cargo boxes (supplies and parts) to repair boxes (shops and space to perform work) on larger (SC2 and larger) bases. While on the smaller bases they add repair facilities (Operational Base or Mobile Base) or provide a significant increase in that ratio to justify the increase in the number of repair points.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 09:54 am: Edit

I can honestly say with the rule as proposed I would NEVER buy a repair module.

Adding 1 to an OPB is not worth it. The OPB is likely to be carrying an FRD with it and 13 repair vice 12 is not a number that makes me excited. 12 is a VERY nice number since it is evenly divided by 2 3 4 the most common repair needs, where 13 is not so much better. And an OPB by itself.. 1 repair point won't do anything but a small aux. ship without multiple turns.

The only other use is on a Base Station, but BS are almost always upgraded to BATS in short order. In fact BS are almost always built now in order to get max use from a COE when trying to put a BATS up. So why pop the 2ep to add a repair point for a turn or two.

In scenarios using lots of BattleStations (earlier periods) the YIS of 171 will stop abuse since they won't be available.

I don't think they will break the game at all, in fact I doubt they will be used hardly at all (which is another argument for why include them?!) I always envisioned an OPB being able to use 2 of them to get to 2 repair which would mean I would ALWAYS build 2 of them for an OPB. But since only one will fit, I don't see them being used.

By William Stec (Billstec2) on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:40 am: Edit

I could perhaps see using the repair modules on a Starbase, taking up the last 2 positions, but would probably remove them when PFs came along.

Base or Battle station, doubtful it'd be worth the expense. 1 repair point isn't that useful, whereas 2 will repair a frigate at least.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 10:45 am: Edit

Bill,

I could be missing Thomas' rule. But on BATS or larger the repair module would NOT add any repair value.

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Quote:

(4RM.11) Effects: Repair modules add 1 point of repair to any Size Class 3 base that they are installed on. There is no increase in the repair capacity of a Size Class 2 or larger base. Written records would be required for any partially repaired unit. Also if the partially repaired unit left the hex for any reason then all accumulated repair points would be lost along with the EPs spent.

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By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 08:30 pm: Edit

Being able to repair a FF and a CW at a single border stations would be nice, but for the Coalition you usually have a guarded repair park in the area and for the Alliance you usually have a capital hex with lots of cheep PRDs to manage all the repairs you need. Not seeing these as a huge bonus or benefit, but they could be useful (if limited to building one a turn to keep them under control).

It would provide an alternative to building massive FRD Parks for those players that dislike the FRD Park. If the cost of repair modules was similar to the cost of a FRD (per repair point) it would be about right as you get more flexibility for slightly less repair capability. That would make a Repair Module cost 1 EP for 1 repair which is only slightly more expensive than a FRD which costs 10 EP for 12 repair points and can move.

Probably should have been included when battle groups where added to the game. It would be a slightly pro coalition rule as the Alliance BATS all die quickly. Perhaps it can be added to the 2010 version of whatever replaces Fighter Ops now that much of the core rules from that product are in F&E 2KX.

As a recommendation, I would suggest that mobile bases and Ops Bases be able to repair two points of damage if that would completely repair a crippled unit (a frigate exception for Mobile Bases and Ops Bases similar to the plasma exception). A single repair point is useless. Disregard if that is completely impossible within the game system.

Players should be able to deploy Repair Modules to any base as they simply replace other class A modules. This would allow the Alliance to use the rule as well as the Coalition by mounting repair modules on their capital SB were it will get more than one turn of use (if any).

Rule should state that there is no change to Emergency Combat Repairs unless a base mounts 3 such modules. Every third module would allow one additional point to be used under ECR rules. That would allow a Starbase with 6 repair modules to use ECR on a DN (Plasma exception for 14 point or smaller Rom and Gorn DNs) at the cost of no fighter, PF, or Power modules.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 12:38 am: Edit

MP you are correct in that I've applied it to MB, Op Base and Base Stations only.

If anyone can show me where my analysis is faulty and all bases should get 1 additional repair point per module I will be happy to adjust my proposal.

Keep in mind that in doing so you might make certain advantages in the current rules go away such as the Plasma Repair Exception and oh by the way the Plasma Repair Exception could be applied to DNH's repaired at Sector Bases.

Also keep in mind that certain units are limited in the actual number of repair modules that can be installed by a specific rule. Also each base has a limit on the maximum number of base modules installed.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 10:53 pm: Edit

I understand SVC's concern -- large Coalition FRD parks are a major problem for the Alliance.

That said, as currently written, repair modules certainly aren't too strong. You are spending 2EP AND keeping a tug occupied for a turn in return for a 1-repair-point increase in capacity. That's called paying a lot to get a little.

Comparing the cost with field repairs, you would have to use the module four times just to break even. On top of that, the tug turn is a significant cost when the gain is so minor.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 11:31 pm: Edit

William, you can use a Theater Transport to install 1 module on a base, or in the case of Operational Bases, build the module at the same time as the Operational Base. Thus saving the "tug" for other purposes.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Tuesday, December 28, 2010 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Turtle is right that you won't need to tie up tugs when FFTs will do the job. And repair mods won't be that common at 2 EP per module as they're just too expensive. FRDs cost less than 1 EP per repair point gained. The only advantages of repair mods over much cheaper FRDs are that you can spread them out and the base they are on will be harder to kill. But lets be honest, BATS just aren't very hard to kill and they are all ready a target if they're close enough to be an important repair facility. FRDs can be moved to keep them in range and out of harm's way.

Repair mods will be of some use, but not terribly thrilling.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 10:03 am: Edit

Just to point out again to everyone. BATS won't be outfitted with these, as they gain NO repair capacity.

The rule as submitted would add 1 repair point to MB OBP and BS only.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 07:41 pm: Edit

There's really no point to them then as 1 point is useless and nobody is going to leave a Base Station unimproved.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 12:10 am: Edit

I can be supportive of a 1 point repair module for 0.5 EP with some sort of build limit of no more than 4 modules per turn that can be placed on ANY available open module port on ANY type of base.

I'm not really concerned with the idea that a BATS goes from 4 repair points to 5 points since it is not mobile and many BATS are toast if they are close to the front line anyway. Any cost greater than 1 EP makes no sense because anyone can build a 12 repair point FRD for 10EP and haul it around with a 5 EP LTT. One can even build a 12 repair point immobile PRD on a minor world for 5 EP and they are a lot harder to kill.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 07:05 am: Edit

Chuck, I find your logic to be a persauvive arguement for allowing them to increase the repair capacity of all bases. However, players will have to choose what modules they wish to add to "newly built" bases.

Normally (read Basic 2010 Game Rules) Battlestatations are built with 2 fighter modules and starbases are built wtih 4 fighter modules as standard. 1 PF module is added to Battlestations and 2 PF modules are added to Starbases when PFs become available. These PF modules take the remaining module position(s) on these bases. Under the expansions a combination of the various existing modules may be built or installed not to exceed 3 for battlestations and 6 for starbases.

These modules include fighter, PF, and power. According to the SFB SSDs (Yes I looked up the relavent rules and SSDs) Battlestations, Base Stations, and Sector bases may have a maximum of 3 modules. Starbases may have a maximum of 6 modules. Op Bases according to F&E Rule may have a max of 2, but only 1 can be a repair module. Mobile bases may have a max of 2 according to the F&E rules on modules and the SFB section.

I would suggest that Op Bases be allowed to carry 2 repair modules. This will allow them to repair a frigate in one turn, and with record keeping repair most cruisers in two turns.

I also suggest that all other bases be limited to a maximum of 2 repair modules.

Assuming the the above change to Op Bases the following is possible:

Op Base or Mobile Base 2 Pts of Repair Max
Base Station 4 Pts of Repair Max
Battle Station 6 Pts of Repair Max
Sector Base 8 Pts of Repair Max
Starbase 18 Pts of Repair Max

X Versions of bases would see the 1 pt of repair per module have the same effect.

Modules are retained as the base is upgraded.

Existing Bases without repair modules would still get the plasma repair exception based on my earlier analysis. However a BATS with one repair module (5 Pts of Repair) would not get to use the Plasma Repair Exception to save a pt of repair for soemthing else.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 07:23 am: Edit

In all cases rules covering the storage and removal of modules in (441.44) apply.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 08:57 am: Edit

allowing .5ep for 1 repair and allowing folks to attach as many as you wish. No need to limit it to 2 modules. If you want a SB(0) with 6 repair modules I have no problem with that.

Would suggest Repair modules be linked to FRD/PRD production as a substitution.

May produce up to 6 Repair Modules as a substitution for the allowed FRP/PRD production in a given turn.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 10:18 am: Edit

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Quote:

Op Bases according to F&E Rule may have a max of 2, but only 1 can be a repair module.

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By Patrick Sledge (Decius) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 10:25 am: Edit

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Quote:

If you want a SB(0) with 6 repair modules I have no problem with that.

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 10:35 am: Edit

MP:

May I suggest that we not tie production of repair modules to any other existing limit. We don't tie production of fighter modules to carrier limits or PF modules to PFT limits.

If we limit repair module production to no more than 6 per turn that would be the maximum that could be added to any one base in any one turn (IOW a starbase that forgoes its fighters and PF modules to mount 6 repair modules). Personally, giving up those two fighter squadrons and the one PF floatilla that DON"T count toward command limits in a battle line are risky should the base be attacked but that's why you're the admiral!

F&E staff -- please feel free to chime-in...

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 10:44 am: Edit

Patrick see (441.441) Fighter and PF modules cannot be removed from existing bases or any other base once they are installed. This would include the existing off map starbases as all starbases at the start of the game are assumed to have 4 fighter modules.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 10:48 am: Edit

Chuck wrote:

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Quote:

If the SFB R-section rule say this then we are stuck with this. If it does not then we can show ADB that limiting an OPB to just one repair module is rather pointless; we can ask ADB for a change. I personally hate unnecessary record keeping in F&E.

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 10:56 am: Edit

Patrick:

Point of Order:

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Quote:

As suddenly every off-map starbase takes on this configuration...

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By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 11:07 am: Edit

Change to Rules: The following rules replace previously posted rules or add further clarification.

(4RM.4) Deployment: Repair Modules may be deployed on any base in active fleet areas.
(4RM.41) Deployment Maximum: The number of repair modules deployed may not cause a base to exceed the maximum number of modules the base can have. Mobile Bases (510.0) and Operational Bases may have 2. Base Stations (444.0), Battle Stations (441.431), and Sector Bases (452.0) may have 3. Starbases and Stellar Fortresses may have 6.
(4RM.42) X Bases: X-Bases use 4RM.41) for deployment maximums.
(4RM.43) Removal: Repair Modules may not be removed once installed. Exception: IF a base is upgraded then the repair module could be given up (no salvage, no usuable module to be redeployed elsewhere) to reduce the cost of the upgrade by the cost of the module.

(4RM.5) Availability: Repair Modules are available from the beginning in Y168.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Chuck, I missed (453.32). Op Bases appear to have 2 points of repair intrinsic to the construction of the base before repair modules. Thus the Limit of 1 module does make sense.

Thanks to comments in the Q&A I went and looked.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 08:18 pm: Edit

Hmmm, FFTs/DWTs can carry/install one, LTTs can carry/install two, TGs can carry/install three?