FRD
FRD + 1 Fighter Module
FRD + 2 Figher Modules
FRD + 1 PF Module
FRD + 1 Fighter Module & 1 PF Module

FRX
FRX + 1 Fighter Module
FRX + 2 Fighter Modules
FRX + 1 Pf Module
FRX + 1 Fighter Module & 1 PF Module

Note: The Federation does not use FRX's. They use LTFs. See (523.452) and (526.2).

Note: The Tholians and Orions do not build FRDs or FRXs. See (421.0).

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 07:16 pm: Edit

From the 2010 Rulebook:

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Quote:

(433.15) Superpower Exceptions: The Federation and Klingon Empire can each make two 4+ point conversions in their capitals and can buy another under (433.16). (See 433.17). The Romulans also get a second major conversion, but this is at Remus in hex 4514 (not their main shipyard, Romulus which is in hex 4613) and they cannot buy a third one. This extra conversion capability is lost forever if the Remus Starbase is destroyed.

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By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 11:11 am: Edit

This is regarding the Conversion from FH to SUB vis a vis minor or major.

I claim the conversion is a major for the following reasons.

- The Empire SITS currently list every allowable 2-step conversion by the ++ (double dagger) notation

- FH=>SUB is listed as 5+24 with the double dagger notation

- Other conversions (including 2-step) that exceed the usual 3 ep charge but are also minor are denoted on the empire SITS with (minor) after the conversion example D5=>DWL is shown as costing 4 ep with both the double dagger for 2-step and (minor) afterwards to denote it is a minor conversion.

Also from the rule

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Quote:

(437.2) COST
(437.21) If the two conversions, taken individually, cost three EPs or less, the entire two-step conversion is treated as a minor (rather than major) conversion.

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 01:09 pm: Edit

MP:

Thanks for the analysis. Does anyone have a counter-argument?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 01:26 pm: Edit

Any additional starbases built in 4613 would only be capable of a minor (3 Point) Conversion. See (433.15).

A second starbase built in 4514 would not allow the continuation of the Romulan exception under (433.15). The destruction of any starbase in 4514 would cause the immediate and irreplaceable loss of the major conversion allowed in that hex.

The only exception would be the construction of a major conversion facility (450.12) built somehwere else.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 06:22 pm: Edit

Any SB capable of a Minor conversion can do ANY minor conversion. So if the Romulans built a second Starbase at Remus, the original SB could perform any Major conversion, and the once per year CVA conversion (frequently it would be both Major and CVA). The second SB could perform any ONE minor conversion even if that conversion cost more than 3ep. So for example if the FH=>SUB were ruled to be a 5+24 (minor) 2-step conversion. One could use the Original Remus SB to make its one allowed Major Conversion. Then the second SB in Remus to make the Minor and CVA conversion. Its not likely that the Romulans would build such a second SB, and even less they would then have the ep to make two expensive conversions.. but its possible.

I Think its important to note, that using the basic rules only there is a notion for conversion that says there are two types of conversions Major Conversions which cost 4+ ep and Minor Conversion which cost 3 or less. However with all the expansions this notion has most assuredly changed. It is possible to have Minor conversions costing 4 and 5 ep (I do not know of any 6ep minors but they might exist). And a single Major conversion can be used to do up to 3 Minor conversion costing no more than a total of 5ep.

So while a very strict reading of the F&E2010 rulebook might term it as 4+ it means Major conversion and the deliniation is now done in terms of Major and Minor Conversions not 4+ and 3 or less.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 09:01 pm: Edit

I have to agree that the FH->SUB should be a major conversion, partially because it is a CVA.

By Andrew Bruno (Admeeral) on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 09:38 pm: Edit

The Romulan OOB states " maximum of one SP to NH/SUP conversion per turn ", yet the SIT lists no conversion cost for SP=>SUP. Is this even allowed?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, March 17, 2011 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Staff:

Please run this issues down and advise me if we need to update the Romulan SIT.

By Chris LaRusso (Soulcatcher) on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 09:59 pm: Edit

This brings up the question that seems unclear to me using all the expansions:

Can you do a "Minor Conversion"[FO: 437.2x] at a non-capital shipyard?

example 1: Lyran SC->CWS 4(minor). The conversion capacity of a starbase is 3 so would this then take 2 turns? (leaving 2 capacity on turn 2)

example 2: Lyran DD->LTT 6(minor). The conversion capacity of a starbase is 3 so would this then take 2 turns?

Alternatively these 2 take up a major conversion slot at the capital using 5 conversion capacity per turn. So for the CWS you have 1 point left and for the LTT it really is just a major conversion.

It seems like to me the above would end up on the SIT as a footnote of sorts.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 07:04 pm: Edit

A SB can do any Minor Conversion, or up 3 points of Minor Conversions (by expansion rules).

any other interpretation would pretty much mean that a 4 or greater cost minor conversion is really not minor at all as it would require one of your major conversions.

By John de Michele (Jdemichele) on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Michael:

I think the issue is that the rule doesn't explicitly say if the conversion takes only one turn, or takes place over more than one turn.

John.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 06:22 pm: Edit

John,

Do conversions every take more than one turn? And I am asking. I know repairs can be divvied out over multiple turns but the concept of a multi-turn conversion I have never seen.

The idea of conversions has changes some in the expansions. Originally there were Minor conversions that always cost 1 2 or 3 ep.. in fact that WAS the definition of a Minor conversion. Then there were Major Conversions costing 4 or more ep. Now any SB could do a single Minor conversion, but only specific ones could do major conversions. Typically one SB per empire that was located in the shipyard hex could do a major conversion (Feds and Klingons get two.. and every empire can pay a 5ep surcharge to do an extra major conversion).

Under those older rules there was never a notion of multi-turn conversions as you were doing either a minor conversion for 1 2 or 3 points, or you were at a special facility doing a 4+ ep conversion but in EVERY case you were using that facility to do its one allowed conversion and of course it happened the turn you did it.

Now however things have changed, conversion facilities may do up to 3 conversions totalling no more than 3 ep total or if the facility can do a major conversion (and you use up the major conversion capacity) it can do up to 3 conversion totalling no more than 5 ep.

So that does bring up the question.

Is it possible to have a SB use its minor conversion to do a 2ep minor conversion plus 1ep of a second minor conversion (of course leaving the half-converted unit at the facility just like a partially repaired unit).

That is likely a question for Q&A. I think the answer is under the current rules no such rule exists. But its perhaps something that should be considered.

But under the rules that exist, a SB is capable of a Minor Conversion.. it can be any ONE minor conversion or up to three conversions costing no more than a total of 3ep. These Minor conversions even if they cost 4 or more EP are completed immediatly.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 03:00 am: Edit

***BANGING HEAD ON DESK***

Gentlemen: Please go read ALL of (437.2) especially (437.22).

Bottomline: The ENTIRE two-step conversion is treated as A MINOR CONVERSION, where both elements of the conversion are performed SIMULTANEOUSLY by a single starbase.

[Issues Chuck pain medication. Orders padding for Chuck's desk. -- WebMom]

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Chuck,

My comment that was anywhere at all questioning was the idea of partial conversions like partial repairs. The idea has never come up before, and by the rules one cannot do it. But is it something that should be considered? *shrugs* who knows?

As for the other stuff.. I am not in the least bit confused on 2-step conversions although I think there is something of a general confusion with some people about minor/major conversions given the wording on the basic rules that equates Minor = 3ep or less and Major = 4 or more ep.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 02:02 pm: Edit

See Safety Protocol 223 (B) subparagraph iiv:

"... all personnel at risk of head trauma, concussions and or repeated blows from a blunt instrument (such as a desk or concrete wall) shall be issued appropriate head gear such as padded helmets."

Fills out appropriate paper work and routes it to Web mom for endorsement, and suggest that it be routed to procurement. It being noted in passing that Petricks office has already been padded.

By Andrew Bruno (Admeeral) on Friday, March 25, 2011 - 12:31 am: Edit

*chuckles!*

Any word on the SP=>SUP conversion cost? Seems like it would be a 2-step minor of 6+8 EP to me.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, March 25, 2011 - 05:59 pm: Edit

Chuck wrote:

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Quote:

Staff:

Please run this issues down and advise me if we need to update the Romulan SIT.

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, March 25, 2011 - 08:36 pm: Edit

TM: Here is fine.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 25, 2011 - 09:06 pm: Edit

MParker:

At this time, no such rule exists. You cannot do a conversion over two or more turns.

If you would like to propose that such a rule should exist I would suggest that you do so in the proper forum, which this is not.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 09:47 am: Edit

Romulan PHX (SCS): Conversion from CNV should be 3+PF not 5. The CNV is already a carrier. A PFT conversion is 3 EPs + PFs. Thomas Mathews 27 Mar 2011

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 10:02 am: Edit

Romulan PHX (SCS): Conversion from CNV is correct as is (5 EP): All CVA to SCS conversions (except Fed) have an established cost of 5 EP. Jason E. Schaff 03/27/2011

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 11:04 am: Edit

Jason,

All DN to SCS are 5 EP. 3 for PF Operations and 2 for carrier operations

Why pay for a carrier conversion twice? You have paid for it once. A DN to CVA is 4 EP. Also, if using (530.0) you don't pay to change out the standard fighter to heavy fighters except to pay for the increased fighter factors (2 Free Fighter Factors or 4 EP). The Romulan ROC is 3 EP to convert from a CON. The Romulan PHX is 2 EP when converted from a ROC.

It looks like all CVA and CVAH to SCS conversions are wrong then.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 11:59 am: Edit

The "excess" charge for the CVA to SCS conversion is presumably a charge for the conversion from one fighter count to another.

Thus:
DN to SCS: 2 EP to add the 12 fighters plus 3 EP to make it a (non-scout) PFT

CON to ROC or Lyran DN to DNP: 3 EP for making the unit a (non-scout) PFT; no carrier conversions involved.

CVA to SCS: 3 points for the PFT ability plus 2 points to "unconvert" a 24-factor carrier to a 12 factor carrier. (12-fighter factor changes are mostly 2 EP). There is much more going on, from a structural standpoint, in converting a CVA to handle PFs than there is in converting a DN to handle (only) PFs.
(EDIT - This is also consistent with the Fed CVA to SCS conversion being only 3 EP, since the conversion does not remove any existing fighter bays (just converts the A10 ready racks to F18 ready racks), but adds F111s in the manner that PFs are added to the ROC or DNP.) (EDIT AGAIN - That should obviously have been A20s, not F111s! DOH!)

CVA to CVA(H): Literally the only change to the ship, from an SFB perspective, is to replace the ready racks in 1/2 of the fighter bays. Therefore, it is reasonable that there should be no cost other than for the increased fighter factors.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 02:36 pm: Edit

Jason, ignore the Fed SCS it's a different animal unto itself because of the Fed Thrid Way.

Look at the Klingon, and Kzinti SCS for a more reasonable comparison. You could argue throwing in the ISC as well as they are similar increses, but as they aren't "published" we won't use them.

A DN to CVA adds 24 fighters (12 Fighter Factors) at the cost of some space, power, and weapons.

Convert a CVA to a CVAH. You replace 12 fighters and the associated hanger space with 6 heavy fighters.

Convert a DN to a SCS. You add 12 fighters (6 fighter factors) and a flotilla of PFs plus the associated hardware at the cost of some space, power and weapons.

Convert a CVA or CVAH to a SCS. You remove 12 of (6 Heavy) fighters (6 Fighter Factors or 8 Heavy Fighters Factors). This emptied space is now taken up with support facilities for the PF flotilla. All SCS ships in all empires attach PFs to the Tender via some sort of mechanical linkage system. With a couple of rare exceptions there is no internal storage for more than 1 or possibly 2 PFs to be carried internally.

Look closer at the SSDs and you will see the bigger change is from the DN to the CVA/SCS than it is from the CVA/CVAH to the SCS.