Archive through April 15, 2011
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
F&E Proposals Forum:
F&E Electronic Economic Spreadsheet:
Archive through April 15, 2011
Use this topic to discuss a proposal to create a fully functional F&E economic spreadsheet and he features it may contain.
I dare say most people already use different versions of spreadsheets. Would the best option be for people to submit them for review?
I think it would be pretty hard to describe the functionality of a spreadsheet using nothing more than a text box.
I'd like to take the form I have and make it available in electronic form.
I'd like it to:
A. Be fully functional for any period of the General War and beyond
B. Adaptable for non-GW games
C. Contain a build schedule and conversion options
D. Tabbed pages for each turn
C. A set-up page to set game parameters
E. Limited enforcement of rules (deficit spending, province generation from off map, repair costs, etc) with a locking feature.
F. One page - one turn shopping
G. Your thoughts???
We'll talk more at Origins this summer but I want to put together a team of spreadsheet savvy folks that can take my one page econ form and make it work on-line.
For now -- we'll just capture ideas...
In my sheet, I have one tab for each empire - this allows a player to have a single place to handle all the empires under his control. The setup is a column for each turn; builds are handled in a different sheet.
I would also suggest avoiding macros if using Excel as they don't port well to Open Office or to other programs.
On mine, I do one tab for each turn, and one workbook for each empire. Builds are handled on the sheet, with formulas to automate the math.
John.
Chuck, didn't you and Mike Parker develop such an Excel sheet? I use Mike's sheet all the time, and it is simply awesome.
Granted it doesn't have all the features you mentioned, like limited rule enforcement. However, it goes a LONG way.
My only complaint about the Parker/Strong form is that it's not clear about *when* certain economic activities occur. For example, you can show a negative balance before operational when you actually have a positive balance because you blockade ran EPs from the WYN cluster.
I created the form that is in use today and plan to use it as the basis of this drill with input from this site.
Ted:
I don't follow -- there is an income determination section; raid income/expense issues are part of other sections...
Correct. The issue is that I've had opponents object to me taking certain actions because they think I have a negative balance at a given point in time. The example I used was blockade run. Because WYN income is placed near the bottom of the, that is where it is recorded. That cash is now available for expenses such as drone bombardment during the turn. However, DB expenses are higher up on the form in the center column, top half, so it *looks like* I'm going into a negative balance during combat. However, I'm not because I have the WYNCOVIA cash obtained form the blockade run.
It matters especially if you are using ADS or if you are near your maximum deficit for a turn. If you had gone negative during the turn, then you would have to add to your deficit (and pay interest on it) or you simply could not spend at all. However, as the cash was available, you can spend it without further deficit spending.
Another example is colonial development. The money spent on colonies already under development is paid out during the production phase, and thus can reduce your ability to build or repair ships. The money spent on the first turn of colonial development may be spent during operational movement, which might take the form of deficit spending.
There are others I think.
with the Strong/MP form we need to expand the actual portion of construction.
The full fed/klingon/isc build with units added in for the MSYx and possibly APTs/PTRs will fill this up if it is 1 per cell with the late war full schedule.
The Klingons in Y178 have 10 blank lines in the Schedule Ship Production after spreading out their schedule to 1/per line. This includes an APT at each original starbase. I will look at the Feds in a while to see what's different there.
The above does not include things like a MB/OPB or FRD/FRD+ or MMG or Prime Team(s) and other things I may have forgetten.
Under the Prodcution Expenses: Balance
The lines for CEDS Repair and CEDS Replacement are no longer needed. There is no CEDS in the 2010 rules.
Under the End Phasing Turn: Balance
The line for CEDS replacement is no longer needed. There is no CEDS in the 2010 rules.
Ted WYN trade income is received in 10B of the SOP. See (449.131). Sale of WYN ships is treated in the same manner if I read the rule right. Therefore the line items for this specific rule is in the correct location.
The only thing i know that is out of place, and it really isn't, is salvage for turn 1 when you start the game as the non-phasing player
The first turn of colony production is paid in the Operation Movement phase. Subsequent turns are paid in the production phase. See (105.P) 3B5 and 2B3 respecitvely.
Colony Production is one of those things I "pay" for in 2B3 for the first turn by recording the hex where I'm starting the colony under the other unit production section on the form.
I suppose it is a matter of personal preference as to how you keep track of such in-turn expenses.
IIRC there's a ruling that sale of WYN ships results in *immediate* income at the point of operational movement where the sold ship enters the cluster.
Also, double check for rulings on *blockade running* income from the WYN. I know if you move it out by operational it's not available till 10B.
There's still the issue of colonial development.
Salvage was another one I couldn't remember and you mentioned.
Transfer to allies is another. You can transfer EPs to allies during strategic movement (step 8 of the SoP), which happens before WYN transfers (step 10) but after salvage at step 5-6X 7. Right now the form lists salvage as coming after transfers to/from (when it should be before) and after WYN proceeds.
So, end phasing turn part of the spreadsheet should be broken down so that the player knows how much cash he has to transfer to allies and how much he receives from allies *after* salvage and *before* WYN proceeds.
Agreed that CEDS lines should be eliminated, making room more more information.
Checking the Feds, it looks like they will actually run out of room if they are broken out to 1 ship per line in the Scheduled Ship Production.
This doesn't include space for things like SWACs, Prime Teams, MMGs, etc.
Other suggestions for the form:
Recycled lines for eliminating CEDS issues can be used to account more precisely for when expenses/income occurs.
Ship activation section is too big for the job. Feds and Roms have the largest activation section, and even for them there are three blank lines that can be recycled for some other section.
Police ship call up section has one extra line that can be recycled for something else.
Suggest recycled lines go into "Running Tallies" where I do run out of space sometimes.
I have always been confused between "other unit production" and "vital production" and what these sections are actually used for.
Another suggestion to make the form more friendly to use of ADS.
If you go into further debt during a turn, then technically you are adding to the national debt - NOT going into a negative which then goes into cell G40. It would be a pain in the zotckiss programming wise (I think) but it would be nice that if you have checked the ADS box then further deficit spending during the turn would be reflected in the next turn's ADS balance in cell H6. It would be even nicer if the form flagged a possible violation if your "new" deficit spending in cell C6 plus your "during turn" deficit spending exceeded your maximum deficit for the turn (cell M56).
The way I handle this issue now is, while I borrow during a turn, I will simply increase the "new" balance in cell G6 as the turn proceeds along so that the end phasing turn expenses (cell P29) is always zero or greater while using ADS. Would be nice not to have to do that manually.
Ted, the SOP would take precedence here. Any EPs received from the WYN would be accounted for in 10B. Atleast that's the way I read it. Yes, you get the EPs delivered durning 3A-4x (where x is the actual substep) when using blockade running. Howevere it is not accounted for by your ever efficient staff until 10B. I do not see any issue with the location of the line for WYN Income unless ofcourse it should be at the very bottom of that section after things like transfers from allies, com con deliveries and salvage which all happen before 10B.
I know if you look at the 2KX SOP 10B says this sub step is not used in Basic F&E. And ofcourse this will be on the (105.IW) SOP.
Ted, I can't speak for other folks, but I know my way of using the 'other unit' and 'vital production' sections has been this:
"Other Unit Production" is for things like tug pods, MMGs, and other such units which were built but don't necessarily belong to the list as ship production.
"Vital Production" is for 'installations' (MSYs, replacement shipyard, etc)
Leave the extra lines in the activations. I found I needed them when using a modfied form for the Klingons under Twisted Wind playtest.
I would leave the Police Ship call ups alone as well.
I used the same Turn 20, Spring 178 Schedule on this post By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 01:48 pm: Edit
As I did for the Klingon schedule in this post By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 01:21 pm: Edit
This way we are comparing apples to apples, even if they are of a different flavor.
At one point I had the Excel formulas worked out to automate ADS, track it, take the interest you owe automatically out of your income at the start of turn, and it made sure your balance could never go below zero (it would add it to the total debt instead). I don't remember if it error checked how much you borrowed, but I think it did.
Vital Production (otherwise known as "I need it now" production):
Accelerated Production
Production overrides
Over builds
I tend to use Vital Production for things like the PRDs or MSY's being built by the Eng. This helps me keep track of what what the Eng is building as well as how many turns have passed on multi turn construction products.
Whereas I put colonies, convoys, and the like in Other Unit production for much the same reason.
edit:
I like the Running Tallies section. That's very useful for things like Survey Slots, Wyncovia Balance, Accured WYN Trade Rights, etc.
I have one that I received from someone else that has an old version of the SIT incorporated into it so that it auto populates costs into the form as you type in the ship. It also tracks total empire hull counts by type.
It is out of date (and was when I received it) and does not match the format of the standard printed form. That said it IS, in concept, FAR better then what we (my old playgroup) have had (something that simply adds the columns down). The powers that be have held on to the SIT in excel formats so updating this would/could be troublesome, and thus I have not distributed it further.
Thomas,
You analysis is incorrect on Wyn trade income. If you have funds in your Wyncovia account prior to the start of your turn those funds are available for use as soon as you return them to your capital (or partial grid). So if you have 10ep in Wyncovia you can blockade run a tug to and from the cluster picking up those 10 ep which are then immediatly available for use from that point on.
When you send a ship with ep INTO the cluster to engage in Wyn trade you are credited in 10B (I do not have SOP handy so I am assuming 10B) with 1.5 times whatever you deposited and this is credited into your Wyncovia account. The important point here is that whatever you send in Wyn trade is multiplied by 1.5 but those new ep are not credited to your Wyncovia account until the end of the turn. Also you are not permitted to use funds pulled from Wyncovia to do Wyn trade until they become mingled with your general ep account.. makes sense, the 1.5ep from Wyn trade is not some super secret multiply, it represents rare/valuable materials.. the ep you send represents things the Wyn cluster wants that they do not produce internally or that is produced in small numbers (Romulan Ale 
). So it makes sense you cannot take your 4 ep of newly aquired Wyncovia radiation shield ore and trade it back to them for 1.5.."Sorry bub no can do our warehouses are lousy with that stuff"
As for sales of ships, those EP's are immediatly credited to your ep total without any portage needed.