| By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 05:20 pm: Edit |
As for the econ sheet I developed from Chuck's paper form I am willing to put effort into it given direction from Origin's. And I also publically avow that anyone else can do with it as they wish as far as modifications. I only ask that Chuck Strong be credited for the design of the form, and that I get credited for original conversion to spreadsheet form.
I will say I have kicked around the idea of having the conversions automated. In the sense that you would put in a hull and it would then allow you to select only from amongst allowable conversions. That is not a simple task, and the difficulty is why I haven't incorporated it. Its not really technically challenging its just that you basically have to form a chart that includes every possible conversion by YIS. That becomes rather tedious and fraught with possible error. The same sort of chart (although perhaps even more complex) would be needed to automate production. Right now my spreadsheet presents the players with the schedule by turn, it would be nice to instead be able to say select a CA hull and be able to select all legal substitutions for production and have that fill in the ep cost.. but that requires a rather massive collection of data.
| By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 06:27 pm: Edit |
MP understates the difficulty of automating the subsitutions. You have to make tables for each empire for what he's saying. It can be done, but it does complicate things more by making the potential for errors much much greater.
| By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 06:38 pm: Edit |
Yep.. it would be easier to do it with a relational database, but then everyone that used it would need to run mysql or something which is just not tenable.
| By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 09:19 pm: Edit |
What? Doesn't everyone have SQL personal edition installed on their computer? ;)
| By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 09:49 pm: Edit |
It could be an online database, for which you could pay ADB a small monthly fee for its use.
| By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Saturday, April 16, 2011 - 12:15 am: Edit |
I'm not paying an on line subscription to play my home game. I'll go back to writing it out long hand before I do that. If F&E on-line is ever completed I would pay for that, but not pay an extra fee to use the form on top of the on-line cost to play.
I also still see loading the SIT into the program as problematic as any time an update to the SIT comes out the database for the form will be out of date. Then you'll have the problem of people having different versions of the program with different production or conversion costs on something. If the Form does the math, that's more than good enough.
Yes a form that had all the possible production and conversion information would be great but Perfection is the enemy of Good Enough.
| By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, April 16, 2011 - 09:16 am: Edit |
Randy, at this point I don't think that is an option to be discussed at all. There is a lot of work to be done before something like an online database could be discussed let alone implemented.
Dan, you are certainly free to use any home brewed way of doing your econ you want.
I think Chuck would like for us to come up with a single electronic version, Excel, Access, or something else, that can be used by everyone in a way that not only makes it easy for everyone to read, but also helps people with things like why can't I build this unit in Y174, when it isn't available until Y175. I know there are some prototype rules that violate the general rule of YIS dates, i.e. the Kzinti DWAs for one.
Things like the Kzinti DWA prototypes have to be looked at as well.
MP, is it possible to have the data stored in Access tables and be pulled from an Excel spreadsheet? I would think that it would have to be the actual Excel program not just the viewer that lets you open the spreadsheet to look without making changes.
I've used 2 different versions of spreadsheets one by MP, and I don't know who did the other one I used. To me, the one by MP based on Chuck's single year econ form, is easy to read and easy to check your history and check your future standard production schedule.
I've modfied MP's spreadsheet easily enough for a couple of playtest scenarios. It's not hard to modify it as it currently exists, but the more you change production schedules for playtest scenarios the more trouble you can put yourself in.
Also we need to consider (433.3). I'm not sure I agree with SVC's comment about most people building variants in the same year as the base hull. (Specifically War Cruiser and War Destroyer hulls.) However, the rule is there and definately needs to be considered.
| By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Saturday, April 16, 2011 - 08:01 pm: Edit |
Thomas,
Sure but not everyone that has excel has access.. most do but not every version of office has both, and it might make things problematical for users of open office.
What might be the best is to have a SQL database somewhere that periodically someone imports from to create a single excel spreadsheet. Then this excel sheet is made available for download and folks can then use that to make their excel econ form work. It can even be invisible if you make certain settings.
| By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 02:22 pm: Edit |
Certainly, we can update the current, standardized 8.5x11 econ form so that we include all common used line items -- this is Block 1: "hardcopy".
Block 2: The electronic "dumb" Excel form -- this form simply allows the player to input any numbers (right or wrong) with the form doing simple and proper calculations to those inputs.
Block 3: The electronic "educated" Excel form -- this form also does the calculations but only allows legal inputs in certain fields and/or flags improper inputs or overages.
Block 4: The electronic "smart" Excel form -- this form does the above, plus: a built-in schedule, police ships and ship activations (F,K,R,G,H,I); tracking FFFs/PFs; ADS or standard deficit spending.
Block 5: The electronic "intelligent" Excel? (or some sort of database - Access?) form -- this form does the above, plus: drop-down, legal selections for production to include costs repair log with costs; complex build restrictions tracking (ie one tug per year, one scout conversion per turn, etc).
That's about all the guidance for now until after ISC War is out. Clear one block (making sure it works) before moving to the next but with an eye toward the future so we don't paint ourselves into a corner.
The bottom line here is to speed game play by reducing looking-up tables/charts, making and changing calculations, and tracking items.
| By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 03:25 pm: Edit |
"Sure but not everyone that has excel has access.."
At a minimum players can always go get OpenOffice for free and use any Excel file.
| By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 03:55 pm: Edit |
Lar,
Sure they can. But the fact of the matter is if we require access to make our sheet work, telling people that have purchased a version of office without access to get openoffice is not a viable solution. It should be but it isn't.
| By William Stec (Billstec2) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 05:59 pm: Edit |
How do we determine if our version of Office has Access or not? I don't see it in my program list.
| By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 06:06 pm: Edit |
Well we don't have to solve that problem at this moment as there may be creative ways of using Excel if we put our minds to it.
Focus on Block-1 to make sure the form itself it correct and functional -- does it cover 97% of what it needs to do? As a reminder, for those of you who see a blank line remember we need to build-in some flex for the form to cover uncommon issues (ie Tholian capital income, Hydran Guild cash, loss of SFG penalty, scenario set-asides, etc).
| By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 06:47 pm: Edit |
SFG/Penal Ship Penalties are missing. These Items could go in bleow the Production Expenses Balance, in the line previously used for CEDS Repair and/or CEDS Replacement as each CEDS line is its own line.
Chuck, Economic War Turn buy back. Under the current rules 2 turns of peace = -1 turn of war. I know you have something for ISC War in this regards. Will this go on the form where it is currently at in Turns of Economic Exhaustion (542.27)? On MP's form that block is F27.
Orion Bribes, Orion Mercanary Units, KR Spare Parts delivery by Orions are all missing. These are expenses paid to the Orions.
In truth I suspect that most people don't play with Orions but they should be there. Also on the Incoms Sources the Orions are the forgotten step child as there is no income for them on that portion of the sheet.
| By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 06:50 pm: Edit |
Quote:By William Stec (Billstec2) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 05:59 pm: Edit
How do we determine if our version of Office has Access or not? I don't see it in my program list.
| By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 07:34 pm: Edit |
TM:
Empire unique/Orion line items are going to to addressed in blank line sections as there really isn't going to be enough room. I don't want to reduce the fonts any smaller and the sheet needs to be printable on 8.5x11.
| By Michael Tisdel (Jtisdel) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 10:27 am: Edit |
Quote:...and the sheet needs to be printable on 8.5x11
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 10:37 am: Edit |
Agreed. For me, the primary use of having a printable sheet is really to be able to copy information for posting here on the BBS. That just needs to be a summary of income, purchases, and other expenditures, and thus can be much smaller. For example, a single line could show all of the builds, like:
Quote:Would it make more sense to have a tab that is the "printable output" that has all the data fitting on one letter-sized page and then allowing the computational tab be as large as is necessary to cover all the required information?
| By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 11:01 am: Edit |
Ted, Take a look at the Klingon Twisted Wind Econ sheets. I still have the playtest games if you need me to email you one.
The Klingons keep the Krestels in their mothball fleet. This adds D7C, TGB, F5L and if I remember correctly F5S to the activations. the TGB and D7C are activated under the D6 Limits, and the F5L and F5S? are actviated under the F5 limits.
Having those 3 extra lines in ship activations is definately needed for other scenarios.
As a personal preference, I prefer to see where ships are built. MSY's, and SB Frigate Production allow you the opportunity to build units either closer to the front or in "protected" off map areas.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 11:10 am: Edit |
Sure, I'll concede that. Actually, I thought that issue had come and gone once you had mentioned it (though I didn't respond, so my fault on that I guess).
Quote:Having those 3 extra lines in ship activations is definately needed for other scenarios.
| By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 11:35 am: Edit |
Sorry Ted, I did mention it. I was having a oh duh moment.
| By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 03:06 pm: Edit |
@Turtle - Well, the Access/SQL thing is what I'm currently working on. I just thought it would be a good idea for ADB to be able to monetize that somehow.
| By James Lowry (Rindis) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 05:34 pm: Edit |
Quick note on Microsoft Access: I would avoid doing anything that would require that, as it has never existed on the Mac (much less Linux...), and I don't think there is anything else that can read an Access DB.
On the other hand, Excel-format spreadsheets can be read by most spreadsheet programs.
Generally, SQL can be read by most any DB program, no matter what it uses internally, but such really aren't common for home users.
| By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 07:21 pm: Edit |
Access and Excel can be compiled into applications.
An Access database can be compiled into the executable, just makes the file really big.
The downside is supporting Mac & Linux.
Excel and Open Office can be set up to do queries to external databases. There are a number of databases that are cross platform. PostGre is on windows, linux and Mac (http://developer.apple.com/internet/opensource/postgres.html).
MySQL is also available for Windows, Linux and Mac (http://developer.apple.com/internet/opensource/osdb.html).
| By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 08:45 pm: Edit |
Let me put an end to a portion of this debate:
If it cannot be supported on a Mac then it's not happening unless ADB says so.
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