My interpretation of Nick's answer is that "actually conquered" meant to control it during an economic phase, so 2EP in all four cases.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 21, 2011 - 03:52 am: Edit

My take on it was - very similar to Stewarts

1) 1 Ep
2) 2 Ep's
3) 2 Ep's
4) To me this is the only confusing one - and I can interpret it either way!!

Under point 1 - I would hazard a very very very rough guess, the Lyrans have probably lost 4 Ep's, Klingons 8 Ep's and Romulans 10 Ep's by only collecting 1 Ep instead of 2 - so for the latter two powers, it's fairly important!

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, January 21, 2011 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Well based on the fact that there is not agreement, it seems this needs to go back to Q&A. That said, I don't mind making a rule for this game and sticking with it, regardless of what Q&A says. How about for this game, we stick with what we have been doing (at least I think we have), namely this:

1) 1EP
2) 2EP
3) 2EP
4) 2EP

Before it goes to Q&A . . . does anyone have the 2010 rules. Not that they would affect this game. But if it has been cleaned up there, no reason to bother Q&A with it.

Also, there is case number 5, which I didn't list in my original question:

5) Coalition forces retreat into an empty Alliance province during combat. They then pull out during their retro phase.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 21, 2011 - 05:35 pm: Edit

William

1 to 4 - seems good to me.

5 - No idea - Logically, not captured or disrupted!

2010 Rules - 430.24 - refers to voluntarily withdrawing from a province.

So that doesn't help much!

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, January 21, 2011 - 05:43 pm: Edit

The 2010 rule reads the same, so no help there.

BUT, it all comes down to what "occupies the province" means. I think we can use the rules to answer that one for us. From the 2010 set, we have 430.22:

"If the province contains no friendly units, only enemy units, the province is deemed "captured"."

OK, pretty simple. Can you capture a province using Op movement? No. You can only capture NZ hexes by Op movement. Therefore you need to have one or more ships in a province in order to capture it. How long does that ship need to stay to capture the province? That's a better question, but we know in the rules that things like supply grids are re-evaluated at the start of most phases, so it would make sense to say that a province would be captured if during the next supply check you had one or more ships in the province and the enemy had none.

Note that this rules out being able to capture a province during Phase 5 (Combat phase), as the supply check comes too late. The next supply check we get is at the start of Phase 6 (Retrograde). So at this point if you meet the criteria to capture a province, it would be deemed captured. Now if you leave the province, then 430.24 kicks in. Being forced to leave by getting attacked has it own rule (430.23) and would not invoke 430.24. And of course if it's not the occupier's player turn, they can't voluntarially leave the province and 430.24 again would not kick in.

So in William's examples he is correct, you only loose the EP in Case 1. However his Case 5 would also cost you the EP since the same logic as above applies (i.e. the province is captured).

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, January 21, 2011 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Well I agree that cases 1 and 5 should be the same . . . even though I think they should both be 2EP. So for purposes of this game, we can use 1EP for cases 1 and 5, and 2EP for the others.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 22, 2011 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Kzinti Economy 19

Total from Previous Turn 20.45 [they received 10 each from Feds and Gorns]
Capital
Onmap majors
Onmap minors
Onmap Provinces 7

Other (specify)
Offmap 31

Survey Roll 8
Survey Total 188
Total Income 38
Exhausted Income 28.5
Grand Total 48.95

Econ and Repair Phase Expenditures

CVS 12
4EFF 14
3MEC 18
DF 4.5

Total E+R expenditures 48.5

Left at end of Econ Phase 0.45

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 22, 2011 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Hydran Economy turn 19

Offmap Treasury 22.6
Total from Previous Turn 10.25
Capital 12
Onmap majors
Onmap minors 1
Onmap Provinces 5

Offmap 31

Survey Roll 10
Survey Total 183
Total Income 49
Exhausted Income 36.75

Grand Total 69.6

Econ and Repair Phase Expenditures

Repair:
Hydrax 1.5
Offmap 10

Build:
4PDU 28
LB 9
RN 6
2HR 10

Convert:
2x(HN -> AH) 2

Total E+R expenditures 66.5

Left at end of Econ Phase 3.1

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 22, 2011 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Federation economy 19

Total from previous turn -11.5
Capital 59
Onmap majors 20
Onmap minors 11
Onmap provinces 57
Off-Map base 6
Survey 24
scrap 2
NZ 2.4

Survey Roll 24
Survey Total 334

Total Income 181.4
Grand Total 169.9

Econ and Repair phase expenditures:

Builds
BC 10
3NVS 17
11FF [ two are downsubs] 33
2DE 14
3FFE Earth, 6th, 3008 12
2NCL, NAC 16
FFS 4
CC [subbed for CA] 9

Conversions
2x(ECL>CL) 6th, Earth 2
NCL>NCD Earth 3

Repairs
Offmap 8
2nd 8
2907 3.5
Earth 16
3008 7

Barony 6

Total Expenditures 168.5
Left at end of Economic Phase: 1.4

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 22, 2011 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Gorn Economy 19

From Previous Turn 1.7
Capital 24
On-Map base 51
Off-Map base 12
Survey 6
Lost to Coalition -6
Conquered from Coalition
NZ (including planets) 7
Other

Survey Roll 5
Survey Total 61

Total income 94
Total money 95.7

Repair:

4006 1.5
4206 12.5

Build:
TG 6
1HD 5
3HV 30
BD, DD, SC 11

Mothball activation:
BC 2

On tug for Kzinti 10

Total spent 78

Left at end of econ 17.7

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 10:34 am: Edit

A19 op move is done. The most noteworthy event is that the Feds are moving aggressively into Kzinti space to try to help out the Kzinti. All Coalition-held planets in Kzinti space are under attack, except for the capital hex.

The Feds are trying to retake all Coalition - held planets in Fed space except for 2715.

Gorn attacks are somewhat muted by the fact that they have about 30 crips. And furthermore they need to hold a lot of ships back to defend their now-crippled 2nd fleet SB. So they are not attacking any healthy Romulan bases or planets this turn. However, the Feds and Gorns are combining to strike at some devastated Romulan planets.

The Hydrans are going after the usual bunch of province garrison forces, and are also likely to retake planet 416.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, February 20, 2011 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Alliance turn 19 is basically done. Overall, a relatively bloodless turn -- and a disappointing one for the Alliance.

The Feds have 50-odd ships in or adjacent to Kzinti space. The Gorns have pitched in by sending 3DN (one of them crippled) and 20EP. This massive aid has allowed the Kzinti fleet to stay on the map, and most of Kzinti space is now either disputed -- but Kzintai itself remains in Coalition hands, defended by a C8-led fleet and 10PDU.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 08:40 am: Edit

For once - the dice gods didn't continue their hate of the Coalition.

Although combat dice were relatively even (I think boths sides got some good v bad rolls), for once, the Alliance didn't always get their key rolls.

For example, in Hydran space - the ubber Hydran line failed it's persit roll.

Just 18 more turns of better Coalition rolls are now required to balance the dice out!

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Our process has been that I do retro and strat in a single CB file. Then Paul does his CEDS and asks me if I want to change any strats. Normally, I don't, so the game continues from there. But this time, things changed around a bit.

The Gorn 2nd Fleet SB is presently crippled. The Romulans CEDS retroed 3 carrier groups to within range of the SB. So I had to modify my strats to put another 10 Fed ships and a Gorn at the SB. This in turn forced the Gorns to pay for some strats, and deliveries to the Kzinti were reduced to 16EP.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, February 27, 2011 - 08:05 am: Edit

Well, I have been gunning for the Gorn 2nd Fleet SB for afew turns!

Alas, with Federation re-inforcements, I am guessing no meaningful attack will reach the SB.

Onto Coalition turn 20 then.

The Lyrans are still producing a good excess - the Klingons are doing OK - and the Romulans are still under abit of pressure.

Builds

Lyrans - Full Build (including a DN!) - and a FRD.

5.5 Ep's on Repairs

Klingons - Nearly a full build and a correction (I built a C8 instead of D7C last turn....so corrected this turn)...alas, the 'wasted' money on the C8 means a D5 isn't built!

34.5 Rp's on Repairs

Romulans - 2/3rd builds (FH, 3SPB, 2 x SP, SPF, SN and a WE de-mothballed!)

19 Ep's on Repairs.

The Klingons and Romulans also CEDS replaced a F5E and SKE - and all spent a stack on A19 CEDS repair where they could.

Balanced are less than 1 Ep's for the Klingons and Romulans - but Lyrans have just over 18 Ep's left!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 07:36 am: Edit

Well, operational movement is nearly finished.

Several lost files, poor excuses (from me )and power cuts, but we are nearly there.

Combat rages in Hydran, Kzinti and Federation space - with minor battles in Romulan and Klingon space.

The Feds hopefully will feel the pinch this turn.

I also very nearly raied Sol - but 60 fighters from SB's was enough to send me another way.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, April 07, 2011 - 03:54 am: Edit

Operational movement and Alliance reserves are done.

So far -

In Romulan space - two Gorn reserves turned up to ambush two trio's of Romulan ships attacking long Gorn province garrisons. A crippled WE in each battle was killed.

In Kzinti/Federation space - a Kzinti reserve partially freed up a Federation reserve - which will save an undefended planet from capture. The other Kzinti reserve will save 1001.

In Hydran space - 518 will be saved and the other reserve will assist in a small battle.]

The bulk of the battles will be commenced next week!

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, April 08, 2011 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Looking like a bloody turn. The Coalition is raiding Hydrax in force. And the Hydrans just build 4PDU there (the first they have built), so if the Coalition wants to take the hex in a few turns, they may need to go after the PDUs now.

The Klingons appear to have a decent chance of finally taking the Fed minor planet near the Klingon/Kzinti/Fed border. It has no PDUs but is still undevastated.

There is also a largish Coalition force at the Fed 6th fleet SB. Unclear if they will risk fighting at the SB or not.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 06:14 am: Edit

Well, combats have been started.

Coalition are rolling fairly well in irrelevant battles - but the right rolls for the Alliance are generally coming up.

SSC remains unwinnerable for me - another +1 fight in my favour leaves my TGC crippled and retreating against a Fed FF.

I can't remember the last time I killed an Alliance ship in SSC - and it's really annoying!!!!

The additional hurting point will be I will probably lose both the SC (which was crippled 'raiding a planet' - with luck, I would have escaped unhurt) and TGC on the coming Alliance turn

So - Alliance in effect are net up 1 ship and I am down another 2 ships.

All from small 'irrelevant battles' where losses should be even.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 02:17 pm: Edit

'Should' is totally incorrect.

Random results are random.

By Chris Upson (Misanthropope) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 02:26 pm: Edit

if you really think "random results are random" is all that can be said accurately, you must spend a lot of money on powerball tickets.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 04:08 pm: Edit

No, I believe in math. I certainly don't spend money on lottery tickets.

But to speak of results as 'should' be something is not to understand the nature of things.

A simple way to put it is what 'should' happen if you flip a coin 30 times? The answer is there is no 'should'.

Some might say that you should see 15 heads and 15 tails. But this is not so. You cannot at all depend on that, and in fact it is MORE likely that you will NOT get such a result than that you will. F&E is not so simple as this example, but one cannot make accurate predictions of what 'should' happen.

So it is in F&E. I do not concern myself with good or bad luck in F&E. My opponent and I roll the dice (figuratively speaking) and then I must make decisions based on the results.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Well Richard while you are technically correct there is no 'should' in random events... there is a notion of expectation, and how far away you might be from the expected outcome given large numbers of events.

So on a roll of 2d6 to say you 'should' roll 7 is incorrect but to say the most likely single outcome is 7 is. It would also be fair to say the expectation of 2d6 over large trials is 7, and furthermore even on a single roll of 2d6 it would be fair to say a result of 11 is a rare result (happens 2 chances in 36).

Folks use language with statistics rather cavalierly but often the meaning is clear enough... when he made his should statement I got the impression the meanins was "there are some small battles where nobody has the advantage.. so casualties should come out about even"

We could say that in math speak as "With no obvious advantage to either side and multiple battle so therefore multiple rolls there is no reason to believe either side will come out ahead of the other" but that is pretty much what he said. the unsaid caveat (which I actually say from time to time) of "Unless one side gets lucky in its rolls" is assumed at least by me in that statement

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 12:23 am: Edit

"The race goes not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet." - Damon Runyon

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 08:22 am: Edit

Richard

But when the dice 'generally' always come up not in my favour (attacking or defending) - what would you say that is?

But mathmatically, I am correct.

I had (and have had alot of) 2/3rds chance winning - so should win more than I lose - and yet that isn't happning.

i.e. - I could roll 10 D6 and each could come up a 1 (or 6 when defending!), but 'average' with 10 dice, I should win 6 or 7 of them.