| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, October 06, 2025 - 01:37 pm: Edit |
I looked closely at the SoP and didn't see an entry that tied to a state of war starting.
While Paul's response is probably the simplest approach, Turtle's seems much more in line with how the Lyrans/Klingons/Romulans would handle a declaration of war: by storming across the border. I can't see any of them sending a telegram saying: "Good morning. This is to let you know that war has been declared, and at 06:00 hours our ships will be storming across your border. Hope you have a nice day."
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 08:35 am: Edit |
John
I agree - storming over the border is how I see it happening too!
From the game mechanics point of view that doesn't work though 
.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 09:52 am: Edit |
There is, I believe, no formal declaration of war in the SoP.
It is my opinion that War is declared at the moment an empire performs any legal action that can only be done when "at war."
Thus, for example, if the Klingons activate the first of the 3 Imperial War Reserve fleets on Coalition Turn 7, then the Klingons have immediately - at the step in the SoP when the IWR is activated - declared War on the Federation.
In your example, the Klingons declare war on the Kzinti at the moment in operational movement when the Klingons cross into the NZ.
The definition of the word "Allies" (right at the beginning of the F&E rules) clearly requires allies to be at war with a common enemy. So, the Klingons and Lyrans become "Allies" the moment the last of them commits an act of war against a common enemy (the Kzinti).
With respect to the Kzintis, that can happen as early as the raid phase of CT2, when the Klingons send raiders into Kzinti space. It could also happen during operational movement on CT2 when the Klingons invade Kzinti space. It could also NOT happen on CT2 if the Klingons choose not to attack (but could happen if the Kzinti attack instead on AT2).
Basically, war is declared at the moment a player do something that instigates a state of war.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 09:55 am: Edit |
@Paul Howard: The rules do not support your argument that War has to be declared in the economic phase.
For example, the Klingons are at a wartime footing by explicit rule in the grand campaign scenario - but not actually at war. Thus, war could not be declared by the Klingon on the Kzinti on CT2 during the economic phase.
In the absence of an explicit rule stating otherwise, the only logical interpretation of when a state of war exists is when a player does something to which he is entitled to do and that something can only be done in a state of war.
You are correct that some actions can only be done when in a state of war. See my example above regarding the Klingon IWR.
However, I think that just means that war is declared at the moment you do something you can do and that something requires a state of war. Thus, activating an IWR squad on CT7 during the production phase instantly declares war on the Federation at that moment in the SoP on CT7.
However, if the IWR is not activated on CT7, then war is not declared. The Klingons *could* invade the Federation on CT7 during operational movement without activating the IWR, in which case war does not exist until operational movement.
Why do this? Maybe to influence Federation reaction movement by tricking the Federation player into thinking you're not invading the Feds on CT7 because you didn't activate the IWR on CT7. Instead, the Klingons thereafter activate the three IWR squads on CT8, 9, and 10.
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 10:46 am: Edit |
Ted - rules not with me, but I thought the Klingons on Turn 1 was deemend at 'war' - just not at war with anyone?
They might be able to continue that on turn 2 - I don't think so, but might.
Hydrans on A3 and Gorns on A12 though I think DO need to formally declare War in the Economic phase to obtain 100% income and full at 'War' things (the Command Point and Prime Team for example).
Might be wrong though 
Otherwise, they would not be able to buy/receive those things until the following turn?
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 03:02 pm: Edit |
@Paul: Sort of. They are on a wartime basis as an exception to several rules, but are not actually in a state of war with any of the Alliance powers.
Here's the rules you're referring to:
Quote:(601.16) PRE-WAR STATUS: Those races not at War
have a special status defined by these rules.
(601.161) The Klingons on Turn 1 are at full wartime mobilization,
but are not at war with anyone. This is a unique
exception to several rules due to the in-motion war plans,
which called for the Lyrans to launch the first attack and the
Klingons to follow a few months later. During Turn 1, there
are no restrictions on the Klingons except that they cannot
leave their territory (and only new production and activated
mothball ships can leave their deployment zone) and their
Lyran allies cannot enter their territory. The Klingons on Turn
1 can build and convert ships (as well as non-ships such as
an FRO), use accelerated or overproduction, accumulate
economic points, activate mothball ships, receive and buy
command points, raise and buy prime teams, and anything
else that a race "at war" could do. All Klingon fleets are unreleased,
so the only ships that can move are new production.
Note that because they cannot leave their own territory, they
cannot begin survey operations.
(601.162) Hydrans on Turns 1 and 2 are at wartime economy
tor later exhaustion but at not at war. (This status continues
until the Hydrans invade the Klingons or Lyrans or are
invaded by them, but could in theory continue indefinitely.)
The Hydrans in this period need not even have their counters
placed on the map. They receive their scheduled PWC but
cannot build other ships (including non-ships such as an
FRO), or convert ships, use overproduction, or accumulate
economic points. They do not receive and cannot buy command
points, cannot raise or bUy prime teams, and cannot
begin survey operations.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 03:05 pm: Edit |
One other point. If the Hydrans declare war on AT3, then by definition the Klingons and Lyrans are at war on AT3 - regardless of any declaration on their part (because the Hydrans brought war to them).
Same principle works in reverse (the Kzintis are "at war" at the beginning of AT1, if the Lyrans did something to declare war on the Kzintis on CT1).
| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 03:22 pm: Edit |
"Note: I now have a formal proposal to define when war is declared, which would make this principle explicit."
Ted, does this mean you have requested a ruling on the question?
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 03:34 pm: Edit |
@John: No. I'm asking for an outright rules addition.
The official ruling to your question will have to come from SVC, FEDS, or FEAR.
F&E staff will be discussing a variety of F&E issues amongst themselves and SVC all the time. I have some ability to bend an ear there and will try to get this issue addressed.
I don't think I've been actually named a member of the F&E staff, but I've become something of an unofficial JAG adjunct for the staff.
-T
| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Sunday, October 19, 2025 - 11:28 am: Edit |
Any updates on my "when is war declared?" question?
| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Saturday, November 01, 2025 - 02:50 pm: Edit |
410.51 says that the host empire must pay one-half economic point for each homeless ship, plus one point per carrier. Do hybrid ships count as "carriers" for this purpose? E.g., is the cost to support a Ranger 0.5 or 1.5?
| By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, November 01, 2025 - 08:25 pm: Edit |
The support for carriers (for Hydrans) is for their 'true' carriers, there's a listing under R9.R4 is SFB (Hydran MSSB).
| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Thursday, November 06, 2025 - 11:14 am: Edit |
At Limited War, an empire can buy a command point, but it must be used that turn or it is lost. What happens if the empire goes to full war between the economic phase and the combat phase?
Specifically, in anticipation of a successful Hydran expedition, the Coalition attacked the Marquis territory, bring the Federation in at Limited War. During their economic cycle, they buy a CP. Then, during operational movement, the Hydrans reach Federation space, bringing them to full war. Does the use it or lose it rule still apply to the CP or can it now be stockpiled?
| By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, November 06, 2025 - 12:14 pm: Edit |
Most things purchased unless specified last a full turn (both players turns) essentially your current economic phase to your next economic phase. Does the rule say turn or player turn?
It would make sense to last that long in this case as well as in you may be buying a CP for a defensive bump on your opponents phase (you would have no opportunity to do this otherwise If it did not last at least until your next economic purchase opportunity).
| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Friday, November 07, 2025 - 10:41 am: Edit |
The rule (654.1 M) says it lasts from the production cycle until the next production cycle.
However, before that next production cycle occurs, the Federation status changes from Limited War to full war. Does this change in war status change the timing of when the command point must be used? Or since it was purchased at Limited War, does it remain a "Limited War Command Point" that must be used before the next production cycle?
| By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, November 07, 2025 - 08:22 pm: Edit |
You will have to put this Q into the main Q&A thread for the official
Riling but for discussion purposes I would offer that the two things are at least indirectly related. This should likely be addressed in basic set updates.
My thoughts:
While the CP expires under limited war the status change should allow you to keep the CP into the full war status. Inversely as the war winds down if an empire had CP when their status changed from full war to limited that would place an expiration deadline upon the CP remaining.
| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Wednesday, November 19, 2025 - 04:11 pm: Edit |
I know that a tug serving as a supply point cannot move. However, if the tactical situation changes such that using reaction movement as a regular warship becomes more valuable than continuing to be a supply point, can that tug waive supply point status and react? I know it could not adopt a new mission until its next turn. It would simply be regular warship until that time.
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, November 19, 2025 - 08:20 pm: Edit |
From F&E2010: (412.22) NON-MOVING: A tug serving as a supply point cannot move (by any means) during the Player Turn in which it is used in this role.
The rules do not appear to indicate that the tug can't move on the OTHER player's turn. But then there's:
(102.0) PHASING PLAYER: The player conducting his half of the turn. Each turn is divided into two (or more) Player Turns, one for each player. When a player is conducting his Player Turn, he (or she) is the “Phasing Player.”
(412.23) COMBAT: If the tug is attacked, see (302.21). If the tug is forced to retreat or is destroyed, it immediately loses its status as a supply point.Since this rule only makes reference to retreating or being destroyed, I would think that if the tug moved by reaction movement on the other player's turn and was not destroyed and did not retreat, it would still be a supply point.
| By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, November 19, 2025 - 10:35 pm: Edit |
No, a supply tug, once assigned, cannot be reassigned in its non-phasing player phase.
Tug assignments -
2A3 (Repair base) phasing player only
2B2 Basic assignment (phasing player only)
2B7 New production tug assignment (phasing player only)
3B2 Movement assignment (phasing player only)
5-3D2 Combat assignment (phasing player only)
7B (repair tug assignment) phasing player only
8B (SM assignment) phasing player only
| By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Thursday, November 20, 2025 - 01:03 pm: Edit |
The rule means if you designate a supply tug, either you defend the tug or it dies (your opponent should be targeting tugs - they are too powerful to ignore). No changing your mind - too cheesy. You could have used that supply tug for all kinds of shenanigans during your turn. No fair doing that and an easy screened retreat during the other half of the turn.
Or, the two player turns define the activities for six months - think of them as simultaneous, not consecutive.
| By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, November 21, 2025 - 03:59 am: Edit |
By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, November 27, 2014 - 03:20 am (412.23) COMBAT: If the tug is attacked, see (302.21). If the tug is forced to retreat or is destroyed, it immediately loses its status as a supply point. (302.12) RETREAT: If the Attacking Player did not oppose the withdrawal, the Defending Player may retreat some or all of his ships and there is no pursuit. Note that only ships can retreat, not non-ship units. Fighters must retreat with their carrier; PFs must retreat with their PFT; see (302.72).
Reference - Appeal Motion: Abandonment of Tug During Assigned Supply Mission
FEDS finds that (412.23) is a specific rule under the Supply Tug rules:
Quote:
Unless overruled by ADB, it is ruled that under the supply tug rules (above) the supply tug player has only the two options under (412.23). Upon selection of the hex for combat resolution by the attacker, the supply tug player can:
A. Choose to remain in the hex and retain all the benefits of being a supply tug [i.e. a base-like unit that requires an approach battle and being escorted under (515.43)]. After the attacker meets the requirements of approach battle procedures the supply tug must either retreat or be included as part of the next battle force. If it fails to retreat after any non-approach battle round the supply tug must be included in the next subsequent non-pursuit battle round.
***OR***
B. Withdraw from combat under (302.1) ***or*** retreat after a legal approach combat round ***or*** retreat after a combat round where the supply tug was required to be in the battle force. In any of these cases the supply tug immediately loses its status as a supply point at that very point in the SoP.
If a supply tug that abandons its mission by retreat or withdrawl, it CANNOT be used for any other tug mission during the remainder of the current turn cycle but defaults to mission-M (standard warship); the tug player must wait until his next player turn to assign a new tug mission.
FEDS SENDS
Addition Reference items:
Quote:
(302.134) If some of the defending units retreat, they must be placed on the map in the retreat hex selected by (302.73). If the remainder of the force later retreats, it must go to the same hex even if the situation has changed during the Combat Step and a new evaluation of the retreat priorities would have required a different hex.
| By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, November 21, 2025 - 06:05 pm: Edit |
FEDS further finds that under (412.23) that there is no enabling rule that permit a tug to VOLUNTARILY give up on its supply tug mission to assume a new mission (standard warship) outside of the an enemy entering the hex of the supply tug.
Unless overruled by ADB, it is ruled that under the supply tug rules (above) that the supply tug player cannot VOLUNTARILY abandon its supply tug mission unless the supply tug hex becomes a battle hex. Supply tugs are not permitted to abandon their supply tug mission and react to enemy movement.
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 21, 2025 - 07:54 pm: Edit |
Confirming
| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Friday, December 05, 2025 - 08:14 pm: Edit |
509.51 reads: "This tug [the Hydran Expeditionary Tug] cannot be used for any other purpose."
Does this mean that once the FCP has used all its fighters, that this tug cannot use any of the standard pods (VP, BP)?
| By Ryan Opel (Feast) on Friday, December 05, 2025 - 10:17 pm: Edit |
John,
I think that is a carry over from the orginal Basic Set rules before the FCP counter was added to the game.
We will look into this wording with our upcoming Basic Set/Warbook update.
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, December 06, 2025 - 11:05 am: Edit |
John
I beleive the intent is that the Expeditionary Fleet Tug - which is initially set up as the Expeditionary Supply Tug - can eiher remain in that roll for the entire game - or can switch to any other permitted Tug mission and then is used as a normal Tug.
However, if it does that, it can never go back to the Expeditionary Supply Tug mission.
i.e - it's single option to change and is permmanent.
(In effect, it's like the Klingon CVT 'Tugs' - they can be changed to a TGA, but the 'pods' they had are permamently lost)
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