| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, October 06, 2025 - 01:37 pm: Edit |
I looked closely at the SoP and didn't see an entry that tied to a state of war starting.
While Paul's response is probably the simplest approach, Turtle's seems much more in line with how the Lyrans/Klingons/Romulans would handle a declaration of war: by storming across the border. I can't see any of them sending a telegram saying: "Good morning. This is to let you know that war has been declared, and at 06:00 hours our ships will be storming across your border. Hope you have a nice day."
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 08:35 am: Edit |
John
I agree - storming over the border is how I see it happening too!
From the game mechanics point of view that doesn't work though 
.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 09:52 am: Edit |
There is, I believe, no formal declaration of war in the SoP.
It is my opinion that War is declared at the moment an empire performs any legal action that can only be done when "at war."
Thus, for example, if the Klingons activate the first of the 3 Imperial War Reserve fleets on Coalition Turn 7, then the Klingons have immediately - at the step in the SoP when the IWR is activated - declared War on the Federation.
In your example, the Klingons declare war on the Kzinti at the moment in operational movement when the Klingons cross into the NZ.
The definition of the word "Allies" (right at the beginning of the F&E rules) clearly requires allies to be at war with a common enemy. So, the Klingons and Lyrans become "Allies" the moment the last of them commits an act of war against a common enemy (the Kzinti).
With respect to the Kzintis, that can happen as early as the raid phase of CT2, when the Klingons send raiders into Kzinti space. It could also happen during operational movement on CT2 when the Klingons invade Kzinti space. It could also NOT happen on CT2 if the Klingons choose not to attack (but could happen if the Kzinti attack instead on AT2).
Basically, war is declared at the moment a player do something that instigates a state of war.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 09:55 am: Edit |
@Paul Howard: The rules do not support your argument that War has to be declared in the economic phase.
For example, the Klingons are at a wartime footing by explicit rule in the grand campaign scenario - but not actually at war. Thus, war could not be declared by the Klingon on the Kzinti on CT2 during the economic phase.
In the absence of an explicit rule stating otherwise, the only logical interpretation of when a state of war exists is when a player does something to which he is entitled to do and that something can only be done in a state of war.
You are correct that some actions can only be done when in a state of war. See my example above regarding the Klingon IWR.
However, I think that just means that war is declared at the moment you do something you can do and that something requires a state of war. Thus, activating an IWR squad on CT7 during the production phase instantly declares war on the Federation at that moment in the SoP on CT7.
However, if the IWR is not activated on CT7, then war is not declared. The Klingons *could* invade the Federation on CT7 during operational movement without activating the IWR, in which case war does not exist until operational movement.
Why do this? Maybe to influence Federation reaction movement by tricking the Federation player into thinking you're not invading the Feds on CT7 because you didn't activate the IWR on CT7. Instead, the Klingons thereafter activate the three IWR squads on CT8, 9, and 10.
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 10:46 am: Edit |
Ted - rules not with me, but I thought the Klingons on Turn 1 was deemend at 'war' - just not at war with anyone?
They might be able to continue that on turn 2 - I don't think so, but might.
Hydrans on A3 and Gorns on A12 though I think DO need to formally declare War in the Economic phase to obtain 100% income and full at 'War' things (the Command Point and Prime Team for example).
Might be wrong though 
Otherwise, they would not be able to buy/receive those things until the following turn?
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 03:02 pm: Edit |
@Paul: Sort of. They are on a wartime basis as an exception to several rules, but are not actually in a state of war with any of the Alliance powers.
Here's the rules you're referring to:
Quote:(601.16) PRE-WAR STATUS: Those races not at War
have a special status defined by these rules.
(601.161) The Klingons on Turn 1 are at full wartime mobilization,
but are not at war with anyone. This is a unique
exception to several rules due to the in-motion war plans,
which called for the Lyrans to launch the first attack and the
Klingons to follow a few months later. During Turn 1, there
are no restrictions on the Klingons except that they cannot
leave their territory (and only new production and activated
mothball ships can leave their deployment zone) and their
Lyran allies cannot enter their territory. The Klingons on Turn
1 can build and convert ships (as well as non-ships such as
an FRO), use accelerated or overproduction, accumulate
economic points, activate mothball ships, receive and buy
command points, raise and buy prime teams, and anything
else that a race "at war" could do. All Klingon fleets are unreleased,
so the only ships that can move are new production.
Note that because they cannot leave their own territory, they
cannot begin survey operations.
(601.162) Hydrans on Turns 1 and 2 are at wartime economy
tor later exhaustion but at not at war. (This status continues
until the Hydrans invade the Klingons or Lyrans or are
invaded by them, but could in theory continue indefinitely.)
The Hydrans in this period need not even have their counters
placed on the map. They receive their scheduled PWC but
cannot build other ships (including non-ships such as an
FRO), or convert ships, use overproduction, or accumulate
economic points. They do not receive and cannot buy command
points, cannot raise or bUy prime teams, and cannot
begin survey operations.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 03:05 pm: Edit |
One other point. If the Hydrans declare war on AT3, then by definition the Klingons and Lyrans are at war on AT3 - regardless of any declaration on their part (because the Hydrans brought war to them).
Same principle works in reverse (the Kzintis are "at war" at the beginning of AT1, if the Lyrans did something to declare war on the Kzintis on CT1).
| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 03:22 pm: Edit |
"Note: I now have a formal proposal to define when war is declared, which would make this principle explicit."
Ted, does this mean you have requested a ruling on the question?
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, October 07, 2025 - 03:34 pm: Edit |
@John: No. I'm asking for an outright rules addition.
The official ruling to your question will have to come from SVC, FEDS, or FEAR.
F&E staff will be discussing a variety of F&E issues amongst themselves and SVC all the time. I have some ability to bend an ear there and will try to get this issue addressed.
I don't think I've been actually named a member of the F&E staff, but I've become something of an unofficial JAG adjunct for the staff.
-T
| By John M. Williams (Jay) on Sunday, October 19, 2025 - 11:28 am: Edit |
Any updates on my "when is war declared?" question?
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