Ted and I are using these rules in a game for High-Risk surveys. We have gone through I think 10 turns with them and are both pretty happy with them. They are more complicated, but you still only get 1 mission each turn. However, your ship will get crippled less often, but there is a small chance of outright destruction (er, digestion).

Some survey ships are better than others. I assumed 6 attack, 8 defense, 2 fighters, and 1+ EW in these calculations. Obviously some are less likely to survive "more powerful" monsters than others, and some, like the Lyran SR's, can be awesome.

And the rules:

(542.27) High Risk Survey: Instead of the survey die roll in (505.21), one survey ship per race per turn may undertake a “high risk survey” and roll 2d6 on the following chart:

2 = Dilithium Asteroids discovered, +2 EP/Turn
3 = 5 EP in resources located
4 = 4 EP in resources located
5 = 3 EP in resources located
6 to 8 = 1d6 survey points
9 = Monster encountered with an attack and defense of 2d6.
10 = Monster encountered with an attack and defense of 2d6, prime team not helpful.
11 = Monster encountered with an attack and defense of 2d6, EW doesn't function.
12 = Monster encountered with an attack and defense of 2d6, fighters are of no use.

(542.271) Monsters: If a monster is encountered small scale combat is used (310.2) using all possible modifiers (survey ships are scouts for example). The monster attack and defense are equal to the roll specified. In specified cases, a prime team may not add to compot, the -1 monster attack for no EW may not apply, or fighters cannot be added to compot or used to absorb casualties.

(542.2711) To win, the survey ship must cause at least one casualty to the monster. (This may not be a “wound” against the monster, but reflects intelligence gained in dealing with it)

(542.2712) If the survey ship wins in combat against the monster it will gain a number of survey points equal to the strength of the monster. (Learned great stuff, especially how to deal with that monster easily in the future)

(542.2713) If the survey ship wins but is forced to retreat or is crippled, a single survey point is gained. (Well the ship came, saw, learned, but was driven off before succeeding in learning everything)

(542.2714) If the survey ship is destroyed, no survey points are gained and no salvage collected (it was eaten). Prime or Diplomatic teams survive on a 1d6 roll of 1-2, and will be placed on the capital on the following turn after their debriefing. (At first I was thinking that the PT/DT would simply not be able to escape, they are out there on the boonies and all alone, but the ship does have shuttles and a radio, and the SFU is all about heroic prime teams doing impossible things, but I did move them back to the capital if they survive to be “debriefed”. This was simpler than worrying about strategic movement, an APT carrying them around, etc, and has the same effective result of pulling them out of the survey area for 2 turns).

(542.2715) If the survey ship is crippled it must move back to the off-map star base for repairs. On the following turn it can be repaired and sent back to the survey area, but gains no survey points during the turn it was undergoing repairs. (it can be assumed that the ship makes best speed to get back for repairs, so it ends up at the starbase the same turn it is crippled. Next turn it them gets repaired. The turn after it moves to the off-map area, and then it can start collecting survey again. Basically, crippling results in 2 turns of lost survey points as it returns to the SB, then returns to the survey area, THEN can do surveys)

(542.2716) In the unlikely event neither the monster nor the survey ship score a casualty, then the monster was peacefully dealt with, and 1d6 survey points are gained.

(542.272) Prime Teams: A survey ship performing a high-risk survey can carry a prime team, which is the only prime team that is allowed to assist on regular survey missions. This prime team can add to the attack of a survey ship when facing a monster. This prime team and is wounded if the survey ship is crippled, and possibly killed along with a destroyed survey ship per (542.271). Retreating survey ships have no effects on the Prime Team. If a 6-8 is rolled, the standard +2 applies for having a prime team on a survey ship but survey points from monster encounters are not increased.

(542.273) Minor Races: If the survey ship encounters a monster and inflicts at least 1 casualty, there is a possibility that the monster was attacking a minor race, high value resource, or some other important target. Roll a 1d6, on a roll of '6' the owning player gains access to new income, at the rate of 1 EP/turn, which arrives through diplomatic channels. This benefit lasts indefinitely. However, this benefit takes the place of the survey points normally gained by defeating a monster under (542.721); both benefits are not accrued.

(542.274) Diplomatic Teams: A survey ship performing high risk survey can carry a diplomatic team instead of a prime team. This diplomatic team has the exact same abilities as a prime team (+2 compot, +2 to rolls of 6-8). The additional benefit is when a diplomatic team rolls after a monster defeat, the roll to discover an economic benefit in (542.273) is increased to 4-6.

(542.275) Lyran SR and NSR: These ships have some special considerations as they are also tugs. Without any pods or pallets, these ships are -2 to all survey point rolls or a -2 from any survey points acquired from beating a monster. Each scout pod adds +2 to these rolls, so a single scout pod nullifies the penalty. Each battle pod added is a +1 to the negative modifier. If a SR or NSR has 2 scout pods, its overall effect is a +2 to all rolls, while if it has 2 battle pods its roll is not modified. In addition, if 2 scout pods are mounted, and the SR/NSR retreats, it will still gain 2 survey points from the lost encounter.


Differences in my system and the original rules:
On average, ADB vs My system:
.83 vs .94 EP gained each turn
.17 vs .1 EP gained reoccurring (ADB has a limit of 1 per off-map colony, I have no limits, mine is about .15 with a diplomatic team)
.5 vs 3.5 survey points (4.4 if a prime team is used, actually 1-2 lower than this if monster battles are lost more)
17% chance of a crippled ship vs 10% chance of a crippled ship and 5% chance of a destroyed ship

Some survey ships are better and more resilient than others, my averages assume a 6 attack, 8 defense, 2 fighters, and 1+ EW.


I kinda wanted to break the monsters down by type, creating basically a mini scenario type per monster type encountered, but I found it gained very little and some monsters are *REALLY* powerful for a lowly survey ship.

By Charles Shevlin (Chass22) on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Eric Jest a few Questions (I hope) 542.27 on a role of 11 does the prime teame and the ew not work or is it jest the ew? 542.274 diplomatic teames do they have the same disadvatages as prime teame if a 10 is roaled in 542.27 and do not work.

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Saturday, March 16, 2013 - 05:41 pm: Edit

542.27 - Only the EW doesn't work, the PT works fine.

542.274 - A DIP is just a PT with a couple ambassadors, so works just like a PT and for 542.27 purposes, see above.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 12:08 am: Edit

(542.275) Lyran SR and NSR: These ships have some special considerations as they are also tugs. Without any pods or pallets, these ships are -2 to all survey point rolls or a -2 from any survey points acquired from beating a monster.

Any reasoning why for this?

By Andrew Bruno (Admeeral) on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 01:46 am: Edit

Just my opinion, but I'd rather keep my attention on map.

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 04:29 am: Edit

Stuart. Take a look at the SFB SSD's. The ships without pods make really crappy scouts/survey ships, but with a pod they are the best scouts/survey ships in the game. So they *can* survey, but are horrible at it without a pod.

I'd actually kinda like to see hard-coded survey points based on the ship... say a Fed GSC gets 4/turn, but a Fed CLS only 2 or 3 or something. Some survey ships are just so much better than others, but I know too many people would freak with the bookkeeping, even if a computer did the work for them

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Other than the diplomat and colonies, this looks to be pretty interesting.
The Diplomatic team should not get the +2 increase in compot nor the +2 in survey points. The Prime Teams assigned to Diplomats are performing a different mission from those prime teams assigned the standard survey mission. They also have different training and administration requirements.

I would cut the die roll 2 result from +2 EP/turn to +1 EP/turn and limit this to just a couple of times per game per empire. After which the result is +5 EPs.

The 2d6 table gives a much nicer bell curve as opposed to the linery nature of the 1d6 table under (542.27).

The maximum number of colonies should be limited to 1 per province as provided under the original rule.

Otherwise this seems to be a reasonably well thought out idea.

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 02:58 pm: Edit

540.123 states that all DIP include a PT, though I do see your logic, mine was simply that if you sent a DIP instead of a PT, you would give up any money you could make on map with them, for the slight chance of making more money off map with them.

Though the PT may indeed be slightly different, surely where they lack in direct firepower capabilities they make up for in diplomatic abilities (with monsters anyway).

On map, against enemies, I don't think a DIP should give the +2 compot against enemy ships.

The +2 EP/Turn for the '2' may seem high, but statistically it'd only happen once, maybe twice, for any race in a game. The printed rules however, allow a +1 EP/Turn 1 in 6 turns, with no limits. While I agree it kinda should be limited, I think the 1 in 36 chance of it happening ensure that it won't be too much. The overall EP benefit with my rules, vs the printed ones, are very close to the same. Plus, those aren't colonies, they are dilithium deposits. By saying colonies if the map is ever expanded they would have to be placed *somewhere*, and could be affected by normal colony creation.

Statistically, if you send a DIP off map instead of keeping it off map, and you win every battle vs a monster, and make the 50/50 chance to find a new race under 542.273, you would gain a total of about 5 EP/turn by turn 36. However, as all battles wouldn't be won, it'd probably be 3-4 and barely better than just keeping it on map in a capital, or using it over captured worlds.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Seems would be an 'auto always do rule' - in other words - where is the High Risk?

If something goes wrong - you actually could gain more than normal? (1D6 Survey points if no wounds are caused - thats as good as a normal survey!!!),

If you have 'good results' - there has to be bad results.

Auto crippled and Auto Dead for example!!!

In other words - far too a beneficial rule for those which can do more surveying.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Stuart. Take a look at the SFB SSD's. The ships without pods make really crappy scouts/survey ships, but with a pod they are the best scouts/survey ships in the game. So they *can* survey, but are horrible at it without a pod.

Compared to who and how??

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Lyran SR:
2 Special Sensors (+4 with scout pallet)
8 Labs (+4 with scout pallet)
2 Probes
3-8 Compot

Lyran NSR:
2 Special Sensors (+4 with scout pallet)
6 Labs (+4 with scout pallet)
2 Probes
6-8 Compot

Federation GSC:
4 Special Sensors
10 Labs
2 Probes
6-8 Compot

I'm not sure what exactly "survey ships" seem to need, but I would assume special sensors, labs, and probes. Special sensors are worth the most in every way, in every situation, and those 2 ships have fewer than just about all other ships out there.

IIRC, one of the main reasons we did that is because Ted plopped a battle pod on his tugs, which meant there was no high risk even against the most powerful monsters. By making them *require* the scout pallets, it balanced them and actually created a risk.


Paul...

Right now with the current high risk survey rules there is a 1 in 6 chance of a crippled survey ship. That is it, period. Under my system, there is still a 1 in 6 chance of the survey ship having an issue, but 1 in 3 times it'll actually be destroyed, and your out 12+ EP.

The average survey gained through my rules, and through published rules, are actually about the same. The 6-8 results are a "high risk survey" that ended up just being a normal survey, and nothing high risk was encountered. This is the usual result as high-risk shouldn't necessarily mean less return, if so nobody would do it, but instead mean more likelyhood to have something bad happen. Basically, you put a ship on high risk survey with my rules, you are saying "if you see a monster, engage me", while normal survey is "if you see a monster, run away".

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, March 17, 2013 - 11:51 pm: Edit

Not bad, you just proved that teh Fed GSC is better, but that's already known - how does the Lyran compare to the rest that it mandates the negative modifier?

2 Sensors, think both the Klingon and Kzinti sport only two (think there's an SRI for the Kzinti in a CL that has 4), the Hydran DD-SR is three, the rest are four (IIRC)...

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, March 18, 2013 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Eric

"Right now with the current high risk survey rules there is a 1 in 6 chance of a crippled survey ship. That is it, period. Under my system, there is still a 1 in 6 chance of the survey ship having an issue, but 1 in 3 times it'll actually be destroyed, and your out 12+ EP. "

I think your numbers are off....

You will only get a monster on 9+ and then the strength of the monster is on average 7 - so not likely going to be killing a Tug Survey Ship?

Plus, how many Suvey Ships have fighters?

Fed CVL and Hydrans.....so Coalition lose nothing on a 12!

Looks like a bust rule to me.

By Michael Parker (Protagoras) on Monday, March 18, 2013 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Actually I think there are SRV versions of most Modern Survey cruisers... and this would actually give you a reason to build them for use in the offmap (use onmap is already there IMHO).

I kind of like this idea...

By Eric Smith (Badsyntax) on Monday, March 18, 2013 - 06:05 pm: Edit

I ran through all the math using a 6-8 compot with 2 fighters as the survey cruiser. Those came out crippled about 1 in 6 times, and dead 1 in 3 of those. A Lyran survey tug with scout pallet would obviously live more often, while a Hydran SR is going to have a tough time. Everybody else is about the same, and yeah, it does give a reason to upgrade to survey ship carriers as on map survey is only worth it in the last few turns of the game.

Actually, I'd like to make a VERY streamlined version for on-map survey, as right now it is nearly always less effective than being off map and getting *residual* income. We'll see how this pans out first though.

Also, there is a decent chance any SR will face a monster, and retreat to avoid being crippled. Doing so means you get a measly 1 survey point. That shows some risk in itself, as every time you face a monster, you either retreat and get 1 point, kill it and get a decent die roll worth of points, or it cripples or eats your survey ship.

I could have made some mistake, but I sat wit all these numbers in excel with big tables and got the percentages I initially listed. If ya'll really don't beleive me, I can put them together again.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, March 06, 2015 - 06:47 pm: Edit

I am not going to say that I "found merit" in this but structurally this kind of rule could find a place in a future expansion. However, the lack of input from staffers (only a couple of comments, and those not necessarily supportive) make me doubt that players want this.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, March 06, 2015 - 07:27 pm: Edit

I just happened on this because SVC posted and I didn't notice it was F&E. But I read the rule and just want to post this thought. Ignore it if you like.

I think the number 2 result:
"2 = Dilithium Asteroids discovered, +2 EP/Turn"

Might could read as: 2= Dilithium Discovered +2 EP/Turn: Roll one die.
1 In Asteroids
2-3 on safe planet. Establish a colony.
4-5 On inhabited planet (diplomacy needed, benefit delayed one turn)
6 On a dangerous planet, conduct and win a monster battle as in result #9 for benefit (also gain survey points).

I know, it's a second die roll but, hey, I'm just musing.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, March 06, 2020 - 11:46 am: Edit

@SVC: Bump on this topic. I just noticed that this proposal "could find a place in a future expansion" - but for lack of input from staffers. (Per your comment on 3/6/15).

If I can rustle that input up, is this still something you might be interested in for an expansion or a Captain's Log?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, March 06, 2020 - 01:34 pm: Edit

One aspect which might be worth considering is whether or not there could be a "sliding scale" of difficulty, based on what time frame the high-risk survey is being undertaken.

Between the increased threat from Orion piracy, the rising tide of Andromedan encounters (which were a growing concern well before the invasion proper broke out), and new encounters with never-before-seen monsters (such as the Space Manta featured in the cover story for Captain's Log #40), the survey mission appears to be an increasingly dangerous one as time progresses.

Which might help explain why Star Fleet sent the GVX to the Survey Area (with its F-111s swapped out for heavy transport shuttles) after the General War ended, and why they started constructing new GSXs starting in Y186. Indeed, as noted in Module X1R, the Romulans built a SparrowHawk-CX with the intent of sending it on a survey mission, though this was more often than not disrupted by the "hectic" course of events in Romulan space by that time.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, March 06, 2020 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Ted, I said what I said at the time and the lack of interest since then is telling. Bumping me doesn't do anything to get the staff to work on it. They obviously do not want to pursue the idea and I have more ideas than time.