Archive through May 15, 2013

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E PRODUCTS: F&E Future Products (Near Term): F&E WARBOOK: Warbook Update – Fighter Operations (FO) : FO - Section 600 Reports – Scenarios and Options : (607.0) Four Powers War - Scenario Reports: Archive through May 15, 2013
By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 06:27 am: Edit

The the FH will need to be limited production as it is a LPW unit. See FH Notes on pg 56 in Module G3. I would suggest one a turn.

Strong: Please see my post on May 10, 2013 - 05:34 pm as I already said that...

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 08:41 am: Edit

Lawrence wrote:
>>Actually (and unfortunate) the scenario does the opposite in that a MB takes two turns to set up.>>

Assuming I'm remembering correctly (my rules aren't handy currently), in the current 4PW scenario as written, you can't draw supply from captured planets at all already, can only use a single convoy, and can only use a single supply TG. And MB take two turns to set up.

None of this is enough of an impediment to the Coalition attacking and devastating the Kzinti Capital.

The Kzinti don't have enough ships to defend their Capital and SBs at the same time. The Coaltion can use drone bombardment when *attacking* the Kzinti, but the Kzinti can't use drone bombardment to defend the Capital (due to only being able to drone bombard in fights with enemy planets and bases; the Kzinti couldn't afford it anyway). Supply isn't really an issue for the Coalition in Kzinti space, as it isn't that big, and a single convoy or supply TG is generally all the Coalition need to keep supply open in Kzinti space (they still move and retrograde 6; having a convoy a couple hexes into Kzinti space makes all the supply necessary).

To keep the Kzinti from getting absolutely crushed in this scenario, there needs to be a significant rules adjustment somewhere.

Yes, the Hydrans can do a lot of damage in the south while the Kzinti are being demolished in the north, but the Hydrans can't realistically attack either the Lyran or Klingon capitals (due to that releasing a million extra ships and more money), and without being able to do that, the Alliance can't ever make up the VP differential from the Coalition demolishing the Kzinti capital.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 11:04 am: Edit

Lawrence wrote:
>>Peter I agree wholeheartedly with your post about balancing. The ships themselves are really ancillary to the scenario's balance but since FO is being revised and there is a chance for an expanded counter set with this 'fan favorite' scenario I would think that hashing out some numbers should be done.>>

Oh, don't get me wrong--I have no problem with people wanting to hash out counter factors. I just want to make sure that the actual serious issues (i.e. that the scenario is wildly unbalanced, and that isn't something that will get fixed by tweaking ship numbers) don't get lost in the little details.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Here are SOME (so far) of the revisions Lar and I will recommend:

All provinces during the pre-GW period yield one EP during war and 0.5 EP if captured as the economies of this period are not as efficient as they will be during the GW.

The Lyran damage rule is adjusted to where they must apply 40 points of damage to SHIPS per fleet (they must damage two SC3 or larger ships per fleet). After the damage is applied the Lyran rolls one die per damaged ship; if a "1" is rolled the ship was destroyed during their civil war and removed from the OOB. The Far Stars economy is not used (they are recovering/replacing/rebuilding their loses from the civil war). Remove one battle pallet as destroyed during the civil war; this may be rebuilt.

The Klingons OOB will replace one F5Q with 3xE3 per FLEET (except TBS); TBS F5G is now E4G. Change scheduled F5Q to F5L, F5, E3. Limit one D6S per year and one drone ship per turn by any means. The six Turn #5 Smarba ships are instead sent to the Eastern Fleet and are released if the Eastern fleet is activated. Klingon provinces 1915, 1919, 2117 are under the protectorate of the Eastern Fleet during the 4PW; the economy from these provinces is removed and controlled by the Eastern Fleet.

The Kzinti exchange one BC for a CD per fleet. Add 3xFF and CD to home fleet; add "CO: FFG" to Marquis. As during the GW, if the Klingons enter Kzinti territory, the Marquis Fleet (except for the designated six ships) is released.

All empires: specialty ships added to the OOBs from various modules are still added to the basic game but are replaced with an equivalent base hull ship instead (example: an F5G from CO is replaced with an F5). Only one CC conversion per SB per turn is permitted.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 01:27 pm: Edit

From: Charles Strong
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 1:32 PM
To: Ryan Opel
Cc: 'Thomas Mathews'; Mike Curtis (Home)
Subject: Re: F&E Four Powers War

For the 4PW update:

Unless overruled by ADB, the Kzinti CA and BC are the same unit in F&E.

OOB changes:

A) All BCs are in fact CSs; compot 7-8/4 (counter substitution is the BF; ignore the "F" fastship rating; CS build cost is 8, conversion to BC is 1 EP); CS can be converted into anything a BC can and at the same cost; exception - all Marquis BCs and one Home Fleet BC remain as BCs.

Strong: There is a line somewhere in the files that stated that the Marquis was the first to receive the BCs -- does anyone recall the note, if so please cite. Thanks.

B) Kzinti Home/Count/Marquis Fleets only add line "FO: One CD for BC"


Keep the Hydran hellbore +1 BIR rule vs Klingons.

Cheers,
Chuck

On Nov 2, 2012, at 10:20 PM, Ryan Opel wrote:


Question on the Kzinti CA. If it’s going to rate the same as the BC I think it might be a ship we can essentially ignore. The CA to BC is a refit in SFB and only 2 BPV. (Maybe change the SIT to BC/CA with a YIS of 138?)

If a Y135 D7 and Y165 D7B and Y175 D7K rate the same with a 10 BPV difference in 40 years the CA to BC should probably be handled the same way.

I think we should keep the Hydran +1 BI (607.182) against the Klingons until the GW to represent the glass rear shields.

From: Thomas Mathews
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 5:59 AM
To: Ryan J Opel
Subject: F&E Four Powers War

Ryan,

In updating the Four Powers War OOB, you might want to look at this:

Replace BC with CS where the CS is a 7-8/4 unit build cost is 8.
CA is a 8/4 unit and can be converted from the CS for 1 EP.

Convert CS or CA to CC costs 2 EP, same as a BC to CC conversion.
Convert CS or CA to CD costs 3 EP, same as a BC conversion.

The CS and CA have the same Command Rating as the BC which is 8.

The CA is a partially refitted CS. It adds the disrupters and upgraded phasers of the refit, but not the upgraded drone racks, warp boxes, and shielding.

Chuck and I discussed this in more detail over the phone than from my original email.

CA and CS can be found in G3 and both have appropriate YIS for the Four Powers War.

Turtle

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Klingon province 1915 is already part of the Eastern Fleet zone. Perhaps you mean 1916?
Strong: Yes -- these provinces are the three in the SW corner not already part of the Eastern/TBS areas.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Chuck wrote:
>>All provinces during the pre-GW period yield one EP during war and 0.5 EP if captured as the economies of this period are not as efficient as they will be during the GW.>>

Seems reasonable--this should, in theory, reduce Coalition economies more than Alliance economies, due to the Coalition having bigger areas of space. Which is a good thing.

>>The Lyran damage rule is adjusted to where they must apply 40 points of damage to SHIPS per fleet (they must damage two SC3 or larger ships per fleet). After the damage is applied the Lyran rolls one die per damaged ship; if a "1" is rolled the ship was destroyed during their civil war and removed from the OOB. The Far Stars economy is not used (they are recovering/replacing/rebuilding their loses from the civil war). Remove one battle pallet as destroyed during the civil war; this may be rebuilt.>>

IIRC, in the current scenario, the Far Stars economy and fleet are not part of the war, *unless* the Lyran capital is attacked. At which point, the Far Stars fleet and economy are released to the Lyrans. Which is a huge problem for the Hydrans, as at a certain point in the game, they no longer have anything to attack, except the Lyran Capital, and if doing that releases ships and economy, it is a horrible idea. Is this something that can be changed as well?

>>The Klingons OOB will replace one F5Q with 3xE3 per FLEET (except TBS); TBS F5G is now E4G. Change scheduled F5Q to F5L, F5, E3. Limit one D6S per year and one drone ship per turn by any means. The six Turn #5 Smarba ships are instead sent to the Eastern Fleet and are released if the Eastern fleet is activated. Klingon provinces 1915, 1919, 2117 are under the protectorate of the Eastern Fleet during the 4PW; the economy from these provinces is removed and controlled by the Eastern Fleet.>>

Also reasonable. Much like the Lyran Capital situation, in the current scenario, if an Alliance ship goes within 2 *hexes* of the Klingon Capital, everything that is unreleased of the Klingons becomes released. Which makes it so the Hydrans can't ever generate enough VPs to make up for the VPs that the Coalition generate by demolishing the Kzinti Capital. Something to consider addressing.

>>The Kzinti exchange one BC for a CD per fleet. Add 3xFF and CD to home fleet; add "CO: FFG" to Marquis. As during the GW, if the Klingons enter Kzinti territory, the Marquis Fleet (except for the designated six ships) is released.>>

Good.

>>All empires: specialty ships added to the OOBs from various modules are still added to the basic game but are replaced with an equivalent base hull ship instead (example: an F5G from CO is replaced with an F5). Only one CC conversion per SB per turn is permitted.>>

I'd suggest making the OBs include just basic rule ships, and then in the expanded OB, have notations like "Change 1xBC to 1xCD", etc.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 01:42 pm: Edit

What about changing the 1xD6S to even years and 1xdrone ship odd years? Otherwise you get way to many compared to the start of the GW.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 02:39 pm: Edit

We might allow the Lyran non-capital planets to be devastated; maybe just state that entry into the Lyrantan Capital system triggers the Far Stars....

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Ryan: Reference the D6S/Ds --- the current limit is 2 per turn for drone ships IIRC so this is already a reduction.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Yeah, checking the current version of the scenario:

(607.17): Supply range is 4 hexes. No more than one tug per empire can be a supply point at a time. No more than one convoy can be used per empire at a time. No supply can be drawn from captured planets.

So you already can't use captured planets as supply points (which should not be changed). MBs take 2 turns to set up (which is fine).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 04:55 pm: Edit

It only says you can't draw supply from a captured planet, not that it isn't a supply point.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Chuck and I discussed the removal of the Convoy limit. I had originally suggested it be increased to one in use against each enemy. Chuck thought just take the lid right off.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 05:32 pm: Edit

>>It only says you can't draw supply from a captured planet, not that it isn't a supply point.>>

What is the difference?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Lawrence wrote:
>>I had originally suggested it be increased to one in use against each enemy. Chuck thought just take the lid right off.>>

I don't know if that is going to improve the situation--it is just going to increase the Coalition's ability to fight a 2 front war.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Being a supply point lets you draw supply from some source of supply that isn't the captured planet.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 05:44 pm: Edit

I don't know that "draw supply" is a technical term.

In the original scenario in CL#9, (685.17) says "No supply from captured planets".

This would suggest to me that the original intention of the scenario is that captured planets are not supply points (as that is, what I'd imagine, was meant by "no supply from captured planets"). In the update of the scenario, this was changed to "No supply can be drawn from captured planets", which I suspect was just a variation of "captured planets are not supply points".

In any case, this probably needs to be clarified, and I suspect that the way to clarify this is to make the scenario say "Captured planets can not be used as supply points".

STRONG: Concurs.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 06:01 pm: Edit

Also of Note: This scenario states that there is no restriction on the Klingons/Lyrans to enter the Marquis Area (does not trigger a Fed LW scenario as in the GW).

It does say that the Marquis Fleet (all but 6 ships per 601.12) are released IF:
A) ON TURN 4 a Kzinti SB has been previously destroyed or the Kzinti Capital is attacked.
B) The Klingons/Lyrans enter the Marquis area provinces.

Recommend requirement A) to be available from scenario start. IOW if the Klingons cross the border T2 and move into the capital hex the Marquis are available to RESV under the original rule that the Capital has now been "attacked". The Marquis Fleet would not be available to RESV to the Dukes SB however as the rule was SB DESTROYED.

EDITED

STRONG: As I suggested earlier: "As during the GW, if the Klingons enter Kzinti territory, the Marquis Fleet (except for the designated six ships) is released."

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Chuck:

Re: question about cruisers in the Marquis fleet. See R5.48, which states that the CA served primarily on the Federation border. The ship description also states that CAs were upgraded to BCs along with the DSs.


STRONG: Thanks for the reference. What is a "DS"?

By Adam Hickey (Ahickey) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 07:36 pm: Edit

It would be nice to include the Hydran fusion version of the CR (is it the SA? I forget). If we're going to finally include the E3, I believe it is appropriate.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Yes, I imagine most of the Hydran Fleets should have SARs instead of CRs.

By Adam Hickey (Ahickey) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 07:47 pm: Edit

They should all be SARs, as the CR is a hellebore ship.

Technically, the CR in the Old Colonies should be a SAR at the start of the General War (R9.44).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 08:04 pm: Edit

No, the second fleet has hellbore ships in this time period.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 04:19 am: Edit

Four Powers War - Historical Ships for F&E

RefFACTORSCRDATEBASE(SIZE)CONVERTBUILDSALVAGENOTES
KZINTI
DNE7410-11/5-6CR10Y150DN(2)-Schedule: 143.500Early Dreadnought.
CS27-8/4CR8Y125BC(3)-Schedule: 82.000Early Cruiser.
FH415-4S/2CR3Y160FF(4)From FF: 0.5For FF: 2.50.625Shock ship; no shock at 4AF. Limit one per turn by an means.
.
HYDRAN
Hydran TEM 839-12(6)/6(3)CR10Y150PAL(2)From PAL: 2Schedule: 16+64.000Early Dreadnought.
PGZFuture3-7/0-4CR6Y150PGZ(3)From PG?: 2For DD: 71.750Original cargo variant of Pegasus;carries seven EPs
.
KLINGON
C610510-12/5-6CR10Y150C8(2)-Schedule: 164.800Early Dreadnought.
E4G912-4G/1-2CR3Y126E4(4)From E4: 1For E4: 2.50.750Troop ship.
E4J393-4/2CR2Y135E4(4)From E4: 1For E4: 2.50.625Penal Ship.
E3183/1-2CR3Y120E3(4)-Schedule: 2.00.500Early Frigate
.
LYRAN
DNE6410/5CR10Y150CA(2)From CA: 5 From CC: 4Schedule: 123.000Early Dreadnought. Limit one CA/CC conversion or substitution per year.
BCEA189/5CR10Y150CL(3)From CL: 4For CL: 102.500Early Battlecruiser. Limit one per year by any means.
HDDA176/3CR4Y161DD(4)From DD: 1For DD: 61.500Limit one per Turn by any means.
HFFA165/3CR3Y160FF(4)From FF: 1.5For FF: 41.000Limit one per Turn by any means.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 06:09 am: Edit

Suggest Kzinti DNE factors should be 10-12 / 5-6

Rationale: Both the C6 (156 internals, average 34 pt shields) and TEM (145 internals, average 31 pt shields) are rated with a defensive compot of 12. The DNE (148 internals, average 37 pt shields) overlaps that range.

STRONG: When compared to the base-12 Kzinti DN, the DNE internal count only supports defense base-11. From the DNE, the Z-DN trades an E-Rack for 3xADD (2); adds 2xDisr, 4xP3, 3xAPR, 4xHull. Compare this DNE with the Fed DN+ vs. the Fed DN and you will see what I mean.

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