Possible fix for Feds not being allowed to attack
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Possible fix for Feds not being allowed to attack
At the end of A7 and each Alliance turn after which the Feds are not at war with the Klingons, the Alliance receives 50 VP.
At the end of A10 and each Alliance turn after which the feds are not at war with the Romulans the Feds get 50 VP.
I believe that is a better game mechanic for why the Feds wouldn't start a war with the Coalition powers (Klingons and Romulans)- as far as the back ground info goes, also puts a clock on the coalition to invade sooner rather than later.
With all the expansions Coalition (mostly Lyrans and Klingons to a lesser extent) gain huge advantages by a delayed start of the Fed war. They get more time to build (and use) minor ship yards, build colonies and most importantly get to build up a nest egg for coming economic exhaustion. Assuming the Coalition takes the Hydran and kZinti Capitals they will have several turns that they can out build the alliance by more than a few ships.
I don't think this is needed.
I don't know that this is needed--if the Coalition doesn't attack the Federation till T10, the Feds have 3 uninterrupted turns of economic growth and accumulation. And with all the expansions, the Feds get the reaction rule allowing them to build BBs if the Hydrans and Kzinti both lose their Capitals.
The reaction rule is optional, so not really.
But the Feds having the chance to actually set up their fleets defensively certainly makes a big difference.
They don't get economic growth that I'm aware of however, certainly no survey rolls. Can't remember if they can do colonies while at limited war.
The Fed Reaction rule is optional? Huh. Why is that?
Once the Federation goes to limited war they may start to build colonies. See (446.21).
The Federation can build their full production schedule, send 20 points to the Kzintis each turn, utilize as much of their conversion capacity as possible, and still have money left over because of the limitations on things they are allowed to spend money on.
In the WIld WIld West, the Klingons chose to delay their attack to turn 10. This has allowed the Federation 2 full turns of production along the Klingon/Federation/Kzinti borders and 1 turn to the Romulan border.
The Federation Reaction rule is an optional rule, not a standard one. As to why you'd have to ask in the Why section. 
I presume as it wasn't in historically and it does make a large difference (let alone it involves adding BB's to the Feds) that it had to be optional.
So normally all the feds get to do is build their full anemic early build rates at 75% income unmolested. Which is nice, but not that great. Losing the 3 turns of survey rolls hurts a bit too. If they could build PDU's it would actually be good for the feds, but they essentially cannot (they can, but only in the 4th fleet deployment area - no stockpiling for somewhere useful).
The big deal is the ability to move a bunch of stuff forward to not lose as much stuff in the initial assault. But it is essentially the same number of ships you'd have at turn 10 anyways. And the coalition may be able to attack with a lot more than they would on turn 10 to mitigate the better defensive positioning.
I don't think delaying till turn 10 really hurts the coalition in attacking the federation, and does let them finish stomping the Kzinti/Hydrans.
But I don't think it is all that an advantage for the coalition that a balance option is needed. Waiting does hurt being able to decently force a possible capture of the Gorn capitals by shifting lots of Lyran/Klingon assets that way. And generally means the outer starbases last longer than they would have otherwise.
TML, see reply in Strategy Discussion Thread
I didn't think the Reaction rule was optional.. Hrrrmmmm
Well whaddayaknow there it is Optional right in the title block!
Tim wrote:
>>So normally all the feds get to do is build their full anemic early build rates at 75% income unmolested.>>
I dunno--that seems pretty significant. On turns 7, 8, and 9 (assuming 75% econ; 166 EP a turn), the Feds are gonna build:
2xDN
1xCVA
3xCA
12xNCL
1xECL
2xDE
12xFF
plus
3xCL
3xFF
That get activated.
Which leave more than 300 EPs left over on those three turns. They can maximum convert. They can upgrade a new SB in the 4th Fleet area. They can send 20 EPs a turn to the Kzinti. They can set up lots of good reserves for when the Coalition inevitably attack.
I mean, like, I don't know for sure that not attacking the Feds till T10 is an absolute advantage for the Feds, but it looks like a pretty good deal for them.
I thought the feds could go to limited war on turn 7 if not attacked and send 4th and home fleet into kz space. they can make it really hard to take the kz cap. comming from bases in fed space. the ly and kl cannot cross the border. with out cousing the fed to go to total war.
I also thought the feds could buld pdu's and store them for later use at there cap.
with only 3 tug (one from 3rd fleet two from home fleet) You can deloy at least 6 pbu pluss any you can grow and upgrade a star base the one clossest to the fed kz kl border. makes that area relly hard ti invade.
Nope. The Fed Home Fleet cannot go into Kzinti space. Read 602.4.
You cannot (654.2) stockpile PDUs at the capital. You CAN build them, but you must immediately deploy them (to the 4th fleet area only, can't deploy them in Kzinti space.
Klingons can out build the Feds in count and do decent in quality. Taking the Lyrans into account the Coalition can build twice as many ships (Lyrans & Klingons) on turns 7,8 and 9.
Lyrans are 2 DNs, 1 BC, 3 CA, 9 CW, 9DW, 9FF
Klingons are 2C8,7CA (hulls) plus 6 D6 (mothballs) 27 D5s, and 27 FFs or 102 ships (plus they have turn 10 ships as well). Feds total ship count is 39 total ships. Assuming the delay was because the Kzinti and Hydran capitals and waiting till the first ship yard goes online, delaying another turn or two, adds in the Romulans ship builds between the three of them still getting over 2 to 1 ships built. Add in minor ship yards, the Klingons/Lyrans can have almost 3 to 1 in ship count.
I wasn't suggesting the feds get screwed just offering a Reason why the Coalition would attack the Feds turn 7 or 8 or 9. I really cann't think of a good reason to not finish slapping around the Kzinti and Hydrans and rebuild my forces. Plus I don't think it is unrealistic for the Coalition to have just under 300 EP a turn for (7-10), even after ship build costs and conversion they can each save well over a 100 EP each by turn 10. Which will heavily blunt the first half of economic exhaustion. With ComCons, Wyn trade rules (depending on what you are using) Just makes that ep build up easier- especially when their is not much fighting.
I still don't see a need to change the victory conditions, sorry.
Richard, I have no problem with this being rejected.
I just cann't think of any reason why the Coalition would attack the Feds at all.
Their is only a downside to attacking before turn 10. 12 seems to be the optimal time. It's not in Coalitions interest to attack the Feds at all. Feds get their full production but are at still at 166 EP.
Turn 10 cost cost the Feds 166 to build their ships- Conversions will cost extra. Turn 11 156 for just the ships (2 CVSs with escorts) With Romulan ship building The Coalition will still be building twice as many ships (even with 1 of the other ship yards rebuilt).
Keven, what has been your experience in games where the coalition has or has not attacked the Feds before turn 10? How did it work out for you?
Using the 93 vrs I played a lot during the summers while I was finishing up High school and college(playing 10 hours a day 4-5 days a week got alot done heh). Alliance at best would retake most their space. Once Coalition waited till turn 15, they had over 300 EP saved. About 5-6 SBs in Kzinti space and 4 in Hydran space (2 in each capital). (This was with Carrier War)and well over 400 ships to attack the Feds with (alliance lost that one). About what the Lyrans produced could keep up with Hydran/Kzinti production. Coalition had enough stuff guarding their boarder with the feds that it wasn't realistic for the feds to attack.
The smaller Kzinti and Hydran Economies limits what they can build. It's a combined effect. Salvage makes taking Capitals far cheaper, Extra EPs make Economic Exhaustion less effective (or takes longer for the effects to be truly felt) From the 93 vanilla to Carrier war (seems ship ship building mostly improves coalition) Feds get an extra 7 NCLs per year starting turn 10 while Klingons get 6 D5s and 6 FFs per year from turn one. I cann't find my 2k rule book and don't own anything after that so i'm not entirely sure what the current build rates are and @start oobs are. Doesn't seem like much has changed from the build rates from Carrier War (93). Just seems ConComs Mostly benefit the Coalition (lyrans klingons mostly) the Wyn trading mostly help the Klin/Lyrans because it is hard to cut them off from the Wyn Cluster (at least till late war). As far as attacking before turn 10, If Coalition took Kzinti & Hydrans and attacked turn 7 Coalition lost big time, if they waited till turn 10 could have went either way- normally a stalemate. Hydrans and Kzinti took most the game to take back their Capitals and keep them. By 2k standards Coalition would have won most games. Keep in mind, X-ships favor the Alliance but Coalition gets them too. Tholians are a good VP bonus for the Coalition. Well worth it. Coalition can pile as many ships as they want their not much the Alliance can do about it. The Coalition can realistically occupy enough provinces that the feds are close to 180 EP the first turn of the Fed invasion (turn 10 or later). Not hold onto them all just need to deny the Feds that extra income while you push him off SBs (repair bills and more lost territory)
If they attack turn 7 the Hydrans and Kzinti have a much easier time, fewer if any SBs already made. Then again klingons always went for the turn 2 raid we always felt the lost EPs hurt more with a turn 3 major raid (or attempt to take the hex- depends what he has or how the rolls go). Same basic thing vrs the Hydrans, Plan for a turn 4 raid but if he defends the capital to much the SBs are much easier to take down. In Vanilla 93 klingons lost their home world once (they tried to take out the Fed Capital SBs for some reason). (Alliance had a lot of 6's rolled in the opening rounds of Capital assaults and SB defenses). With the extra time, the horde can be much larger to start with, more EPs to repair with, and with some decent planning can realistically cut off the Fed Capital (forcing the feds to fight open space battles) and force a reduced ship building do to lack of funds.
Kevin
Go here for the current starting fleets and build rates. This topic is to discuss the F&E Order of Battle found here:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/documents/F&EOrderofBattle.pdf (Adobe Acrobat required).
Richard
thank you for the quick ansers. can 4th fleet and new builds go into Kz space.
Charles
Yes, the rules say they can.
Kevin, that sounds really weird. I don't really know what rules you used as the game has had a lot of stuff changed and added since Carrier War.
Charles, thanks for the link.
One question about the newer rules, Orion smuggling is a basic rule or an optional rule?
And can the Lyrans smuggle EPs to the Romulans if they wanted to?
Richard, If I had time to play a game I would. I see a Gloomier end for the Alliance now a days.
If you would Like to try a much different approach, I'll lay it out for you(or someone else). a lot of it is based how the Alliance reacts to the Coalition so I can give you(or someone) the basic out line for it-and advise/suggest for them. And this will be a turn 7 Fed invasion.
Orion smuggling is not optional.
On your other question, I don't think you can, but I would check the rules to be sure.
I have enough ideas to try of my own and not enough games, sorry. If you want to try out your idea, I would suggest that PBEM is good for this as you can play at your own pace. You don't have to play 10 hrs in a day if you don't want to (or can't).
Fair enough
Richard E: please contact Gary Carney.
Just to note, Richard, that I was trying to see if someone has your email address and could send you mine. (I didn't want to post my address on the boards.)
You can find me at mcalhoon2 at sbcglobal dot net.
Email sent.