Archive through June 05, 2013

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E PRODUCTS: F&E Future Products (Near Term): F&E WARBOOK: Warbook Update Fighter Operations (FO) : FO - Section 600 Reports Scenarios and Options : (607.0) Four Powers War - Scenario Reports: Archive through June 05, 2013
By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Good catch James; I'll replace the NR and SR D7Cs with D6Cs.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 11:25 pm: Edit

Chuck, don't forget the D6C/D7C conversion...

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 11:28 pm: Edit

The is no conversion of any D6 hull to D7 hull.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 07:10 pm: Edit

'Oops, got the silly thing in reverse...'

Right, it's the D7 into any D6 variant...

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 09:59 am: Edit

Chuck how does this week look for "testing"?

I think the Lyrans want some revenge.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 02:53 pm: Edit

Hey Chuck, did you get my email?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 12:11 am: Edit

RBE: I did and I will send it when its ready.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 12:20 am: Edit

Ok, thank you.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 07:12 am: Edit

Chuck I think you need to add the CA to the Kzinti SIT in draft scenario. 1 per turn by any means, same factors as the BC.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 07:16 am: Edit

I think the idea is that the BC is a refit of the CA which does not itself need to have a different counter than the BC.

The Kzinti CA and BC are nearly statistically equivalent in F&E terms; the BC is used to represent both ships.


By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 08:13 am: Edit

FEDS: These items have been fixed.

(607.12) Has no definition for 'destroyed' for a side. As three of the four empires have offmap areas that cannot be invaded (and the 4th is the Klingon Empire which is impossible to 'destroy' in eight turns) perhaps this should be changed to not include 'destroyed'.

(607.12) Contradicts (607.34, 607.341, 607.35) on the duration of the scenario.

(607.15) I think this scenario also assumes usage of the LDR rules from CL#46 (I think).

(607.151) 'as long is the substitution' should be 'as long as the substitution'.

(625.153) should probably be (607.153).

(625.153) refers to bases called BTS. I assume that it means BATS. The SITs use BATS, not BTS. Also semicolons are used inconsistently.

(625.153) There is a single period under the list of bases. It should probably be a blank line.

(607.21) First sentence: 'the each Lyran fleet' should probably be 'each Lyran fleet'.

Same sentence: 'their assigned warships only' should probably be 'their assigned warships'.

(607.242) 'Begin in Y158F' should probably be 'Beginning in Y158F'.

Second sentence: 'preformed' should be 'performed'.

(607.242) Why are Lyran ships repaired in LDR space not able to be placed in a reserve (if they move out by (free) strat movement)? This seems strange.

(607.245) I think 'pre-maturely' does not need a hyphen.

(607.246) Third sentence: 'for any reasons' should be 'for any of the reasons'.

(607.25) If using a substitution counter, do you use the factors in the SIT for the actual ship or do you use the factors on the counter?

(607.34, 607.341 and 607.35 ) Contradict rule (607.12) on the duration of the scenario.

(607.431) Northern Fleet lists Line Ships and Support Ships as have (0) instead of however many ships they have.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 02:06 pm: Edit


By James Lowry (Rindis) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 02:07 pm: Edit

(607.422) Early Ship Substitutions

DNE: Early catamaran dreadnought
BCE: Early catamaran battlecruiser

I believe those are non-catamaran versions...

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 02:17 pm: Edit

The shortened designation for a Saracen is SAR, not SA. As per Hydran MSC.

In F&E we try to use two letter designations whenever possible. Also "SAR" is reserved for possible future unit small aux repair ship that was outlined in an earlier CL.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 02:32 pm: Edit

>>(607.586) Kzinti Schedule

Strike Cruisers: The CS can be converted into anything that the BC can be converted to plus one EP. Limit one CS to BC/CC conversion per year.>>

I don't think there is a rule anywhere that indicates specifically how to convert a CS to a BC (i.e. there is no rule says "A CS can be converted to a BC for X EPs").

FEDS: There is now...thanks.

"Limit one CS to BC/CC conversion per year; CS to BC conversion is one EP."

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 02:33 pm: Edit


Catamaran means two hulled. Trimaran means three hulled. Which do you mean?

(I don't know either way, but it would make me wonder if the early DNE was a catamaran, why wasn't any turned into a trimaran version, which would truly be a monster ship.)

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 02:58 pm: Edit

D'oh! Never mind, was thinking backwards.

Though, they aren't exactly catamarans, since they basically 'fill in' the center area, joining the two sides directly.

FEDS: ...but they are not filled together in the back...we're good with catamaran since we all know these are not trimarans...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 06:07 pm: Edit

(607.431) I was a little uncertain as to the wording for the Klingon mothball reserve activations.

Should it be that the 2xD6, 2xF5, 3xE4 per turn is the means by which the reserve is activated in the event on an assault on Klinshai, and also the means by which the post-Smarba deliveries to the Romulans are enacted; or is there a separate rate of activation in the case of Smarba?

And in the event that both are in play (that the Klingon capital has been attacked, and the shipments to the Romulans are still being enacted), does this list count double; as in, there would be 4xD6, 4xF5, and 6xE4 per turn, with half of each ship class going to the Romulans and the other half being made available for the Klingons' own use?

(I don't have my copy of FO to hand, so I'm not sure how the Treaty of Smarba obligations were handled in the prior edition of the scenario.)

(607.511) It seems that this rule, along with othrs accounting for "middle years" economic limitations, may have a knock-on effect for other parts of the Alpha Octant; particuarly areas where the jump to "modern" technology happened relatively late in the timeline (namely, in Romulan and ISC space).

Is there a set of years in which the various Alpha Octant powers would move from this restriction to the "default" seen in the General War?

Specifically, I was wondering if the ISC in the (624.0) Driving Winds scenario would be under such limitations, since they had only started implementing modern warp technology after Y160; or would the Concordium have advanced its logistical base rapidly enough to use the same standard as the General War belligerents as of Y168?

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 07:37 pm: Edit

607.322 ... 'but must leave six ships from the original fleet, including a Command Cruiser, in the two provinces adjacent to the Federation Neutral Zone.'

The 'two provinces' should be 'Marquis deployment zone' unless they're to show up in 1805...

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Gary with regard to 607.511, the decision to turn the economy inward (reduced to 1 EP) was a multifaceted decision. The original scenario was EP heavy and tended to be unbalanced. It did not make much sense when you looked at the history either.

Looking at the history you will find several things...
There were several exhaustive wars leading up to the 4PW that took place.
There was a technological shift coming with the introduction of new ships and technologies. While this is always the case with a high-tech military there is an ebb and flow to it which also translates into an ebb and flow of funds available to your economy. In short R&D costs money. It was easy to also infer that internal upgrades were being made and thus economies could be reduced.
There was the SFU historical demand for upgrading all of the galaxy's Base Stations to Battle Stations by Y160.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 09:41 pm: Edit

So, in this case, both the Romulans and ISC could be said to have had the luxury of relatively quiet borders, which allowed them to more swiftly upgrade their logistical networks to General War standards; whereas the Four Powers had to more carefully balance their expenditures between refining their infrastructures and fighting the border conflicts those networks were designed to support?

And therefore, the post-Smarba Romulans (and "early-modern" ISC) wouldn't need to worry about implementing some of the restrictions being imposed upon the "western" Alpha Octant powers in this scenario?

FEDS: We are not saying anything of the sort. Please don't try to read things into the scenario; just because something works in one place does not necessarily mean it works elsewhere.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 09:50 pm: Edit

I suspect the Klingons will not be able to activate more ships in the case of them sending ships to the Romulans as well as their capital having been attacked.

If they could, why wouldn't they just do double activation speed regardless?

As to the economic rules used in 4pw, I would argue that they should probably apply to all empires during this time period, for balance reasons.

Earlier scenarios have a problem in that the empires involved usually have WAY more money than they need to produce their units. This sort of thing helps with that problem.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 10:21 pm: Edit

When it comes to the Smarba agreement, should one of the Klingons' diplomatic cruisers need to be sent to Romulus in order to negotiate and sign the actual treaty itself?

By any fair standard, the signing of the treaty would have counted as a major diplomatic effort, and one which may well have warranted the use of either the D7N or D6N. (Not least since other forms of communication with the Romulan Star Empire would have been limited by the less advanced subspace technologies they were stuck with at TL 9.)

For that matter, if the Romulans' pre-Smarba bases are not able to act as strategic movement nodes (I don't know if they are or are not), any Klingon diplomatic mission may not be able to use dash warp speeds to actually get from Klinshai to Romulus in the course of a single turn. If that is the case (and, again, I don't know if it is or not), the Klingons would have needed to send their diplomatic mission a few turns in advance, so that the ship can use operational movement to get from the Neutral Zone to the Romulan capital.

Since Romulus is fourteen hexes away from the nearest edge of the Neutral Zone dividing it from the Klingon Empire, a diplomatic ship forced to use operational movement once it leaves Klingon space (and going through the line of NZ hexes between the Federation and the Tholians) would have to have already left Klinshai on Turn #0 in order to ensure arrival at Romulus by Turn #4, unless I've missed something or other.

Or, I suppose one could simply say that one of the D#Ns is off to Romulus for the duration of the scenario, and cannot be activated by the Klingon player as a result.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - 11:14 pm: Edit

As to the economic rules used in 4PW, I would argue that they should probably apply to all empires during this time period, for balance reasons.

I agree. I am sure there are other limits and logistical requirements of the time that would require more internal expenditures (infrastructure building, R&D, colonial development and support, etc.) across the board in this time frame.

It has been noted that the west side of the galactic power grid was historically (and almost constantly) alight with the business of tearing things down and building them back up again.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 01:16 am: Edit

This was added to the posted 4PW scenario. It is based upon the F&E Romulan OOB D6 and F5 hulls in their fleet. The 3xD7 and 12xE4s were added later after the war.


In Y159S the Klingons began the activation and transfer of mothballed ships to the Romulan.

(607.261) Negotiators: By the end of Y158F the Klingons must send a diplomatic ship to the Romulan Capital using free strategic movement. If not using SO, the Klingon may use any D7 or D6 for their Home Fleet. A Klingon diplomat must be in the Romulan capital in order to properly transfer any Klingon ships to the Romulans.

(607.262) Transfers: Starting in Y159S the Klingons must activate and transfer via free strategic movement 9xD6 and 15xF5 mothballed ships to the Romulans at the rate of 2xD6 and 2xK5 per turn; once the D6 quota is achieved the D6 activation slots may be used to activate any remaining F5 quota ships. The Klingons also must build and send a TGA to the Romulans buy the end of Y162S; as an alternative, they may transfer an activated TGA.

(607.263) Missed Quotas: Failure to send the required four activated ships per turn will result in the Klingon losing one victory point per ship turn (up to four points per turn) until all twenty four ships have bee delivered.

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