Archive through June 20, 2013

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E PRODUCTS: F&E Future Products (Near Term): F&E WARBOOK: Warbook Update Fighter Operations (FO) : FO - Section 600 Reports Scenarios and Options : (607.0) Four Powers War - Scenario Reports: Archive through June 20, 2013
By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, June 13, 2013 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Doug wrote:
>>I think the obvious fix to Peter's problem would be to declare that the 4PW is fought with the basic scout rules rather than EW points, i.e. you either have a scout or you don't and scouts give a 1 point shift.>>

This strikes me as both an excellent and simple solution. Yeah, given my current, limited (i.e. the econ phase of Alliance T1 of this scenario) experience with advanced EW in this game, I can't for the life of me see why the Coalition wouldn't be building maximum scouts and the Alliance wouldn't be building maximum scouts, and why the Kzinti and Hydrans wouldn't have invented their own version of the D6S by year 158.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, June 14, 2013 - 01:27 pm: Edit

When I get the reports in from all the other games I will weigh all the ideas. I might consider recommend cutting EW in half (rounded up) of their current values.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, June 14, 2013 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Chuck wrote:
>>When I get the reports in from all the other games I will weigh all the ideas. I might consider recommend cutting EW in half (rounded up) of their current values.>>

Even doing that, there would be no reason at all that everyone wouldn't be making all the biggest and best scouts they could--if the universe is using advanced EW during the 4PW, there is no logical explanation for the General War starting with the Kzinti and Hydrans having nothing but 1 point scout frigates. The existing explanation for those 1 point scout frigates is that they existed for recon and fleet control, and neither the Kzinti nor the Hydrans imagined the levels of EW that would take place in the war, so as soon as they figured that out, they started a rapid fleet upgrade of scouts to catch up.

If the 4PW uses advanced EW, even with scouts with half EW factors, the Kzinti and Hydrans are going to quickly experience the levels of EW used in war. During the first couple turns of the 4PW. Which will rapidly escalate, as the Lyrans rapidly build 3 point scouts and the Klingons rapidly build 4 point scouts (which at half value, would both be 2 point scouts, which is still enough to make the Hydrans useless with their 1 point scouts).

The existing history of the game, which has already been ret-conned to make the advanced EW rules work out, simply does not support the existence of advanced EW rules in the 4PW.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Friday, June 14, 2013 - 04:43 pm: Edit

I concur with Peter - though I can't think of a logical SFB reason why advanced EW couldn't work during the 4PW - but the game of F&E works better if advanced EW doesn't kick in until the general war.

The history of F&E tells us that 1-pt scouts still were useful before the general war. Remove advanced EW, and they are. All we need to do is come up with the SFB justification for why advanced EW was only a modern development.

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, June 14, 2013 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Faster/better computer processing speed/ability that allows one to better tune Sensors? Not unlike the jump from Limited AEGIS to Full AEGIS.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, June 14, 2013 - 05:21 pm: Edit

I'd please ask that one plays the updated scenario to completion before making recommendations for changes...

Opinions based upon actual experience have greater weight than those without...

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, June 14, 2013 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Chuck wrote:
>>I'd please ask that one plays the updated scenario to completion before making recommendations for changes.>>

Yes. We all agree with this. But there is a fundamental problem with the use of advanced EW rules in this scenario that has nothing at all to do with actually playing the scenario.

If there is advanced EW used in the 4PW, the existence of 1 point FF SCs that the Hydrans and Kzinti have at the start of the General War make no sense. This is a significant flaw in the history of the universe as presented.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, June 15, 2013 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Question:

I'm confused on the status of Repair Ships at the start of the scenario:

"(607.551) Repair Units: Repair ships and pods were developed and deployed during this period. Each empire receives one repair pallet or one set of pods and their one repair ship per turn up to their authorized levels under (422.6) without cost."

Does this mean that each empire gets 1 repair ship per turn starting on their first turn, until they hit the maximum, so, for example:

-The Hydrans have 1 repair ship on T1 and then 2 on T2, and then are done making repair ships.

-The Lyrans have 1 repair ship on T2 (their first turn), 2 on T3, and 3 on T4, and then they are done making repair ships.

Or does it mean something else?

Thanks!

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, June 15, 2013 - 06:52 pm: Edit

Yes

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, June 16, 2013 - 08:49 am: Edit

Next Question!

Kzinti Drone Ships:

"Drone Ships: CD production is limited to one per year by any means."

Does this mean that the Kzinti can make any number of CLD drone ships as long as they only make 1 actual CD per year? Or does is the above sentence intended to cover CLDs as well?

Thanks!

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, June 16, 2013 - 11:54 am: Edit

FEDS: It means what ever drone ship restrictions are required under 705.0 then any CDs built under that restriction are limited to 1 per year by any means.


Quote:

(607.581) General Notes. Unless stated elsewhere within these rules, each empire must abide by the production restrictions and allowances within their applicable 700 series rules, the SITs for their empire and any additional limitations presented below.


By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, June 16, 2013 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Check. So the can, by virtue of the various rules, Sub one drone ship per year, make 1 CD per year, and make a maximum of 2 drone ships of any type per turn. So at best, they could make 1xCD and 3xCLD (mostly by conversion) per year.

I was mostly unclear on if CD was meant to include CLD or was specifically just the CD. Got it. Thanks!

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Sunday, June 16, 2013 - 10:13 pm: Edit

When using Admirals, the Hydrans get to attack the Lyrans on T1 with 1 command point

Peter, could you point out the rule that says that a battleforce (without an admiral) can only use one command point...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, June 16, 2013 - 10:54 pm: Edit

You can only buy one command point and you don't start with any and don't get any free command points (as we are using admirals). As it's turn one, that means only one command point.

I think that addresses the point (haha) Peter is getting at.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, June 17, 2013 - 07:44 am: Edit

Exactly--on T1, the Hydrans can purchase 1 command point (as you can only purchase 1 command point per turn, and don't get free ones when using the Admiral rule). They attack the Lyran SB. They have 1 command point, and as the scenario was set up at the time that I had the Hydrans make that attack, their Admiral was stuck in the Home Fleet and unable to make it to the Star Base fight (he had more important things to do, apparently). Thus, they only have 1 command point and no Admiral to attack the SB with.

Indications are that Chuck is going to change the scenario so that Admirals are going to be General HQ units at the start of the scenario, and thus can be located anywhere, which will certainly help.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar2) on Monday, June 17, 2013 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Aahhh, got'cha...

Another alternative would be for the Hydrans to start with a command point...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, June 17, 2013 - 09:25 pm: Edit

That would certainly be a possibility.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, June 17, 2013 - 09:45 pm: Edit

I dunno--currently, the Hydrans look to be doing pretty well. We'll see how it goes.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, June 18, 2013 - 04:10 pm: Edit

Suggestion: Given the 1/2 income from provinces, it seems like NZ hexes should only generate .1 per hex, rather than .2; seems like this is implied, but currently not specifically stated anywhere.

In terms of the current economic situation, things seem totally reasonable, money wise--overbuilding might happen at some point, but between the basic build schedule and repairs (and other incidental costs), that is about all of everyone's money. So that seems to be working well.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, June 18, 2013 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Good catch on the NZ hexes -- they too generate half their GW income.

All captured NZ hexes generate 0.1 EP during this period.

By James Lowry (Rindis) on Wednesday, June 19, 2013 - 01:48 am: Edit

A thought I had a little bit ago:

The scenario sees the introduction of Kzinti fighters with them appearing on their bases, but the first carrier (DDV) isn't until after the war.

As I recall, the AAS was originally used on a very ad hoc basis on various Kzinti ships without any real rhyme or reason. I was thinking a 'casual fighter squadron' rule (based on the CPF rules) could show that, and add some color to the introduction of fighters.

No idea on balance and the rest, just a thought to explore.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 20, 2013 - 03:32 pm: Edit

(607.244) "at the beginning Y161S" should probably be "at the beginning of Y161S".

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 20, 2013 - 03:37 pm: Edit

(607.543) Limited Use: Units may only retrograde, retreat or trace supply to supply and/or retrograde points controlled by their empire. Allies may collocate supply nodes at a locations controlled by their allies with the permission of that ally.

What is meant by "retreat... to supply and/or retrograde points controlled by their empire."? There is no rule that you must retreat to a supply or retrograde point in the existing rule set. The reference to retreat here should probably be removed. Any supply requirements for where to retreat to are already covered in this rule.

FEDS: Read rule (302.76) on allied force retreat.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 20, 2013 - 05:11 pm: Edit

(607.322) In the case that the Klingons do not attack the Kzinti on turn two, the Barons fleet still arrives on turn three. It says that if this happens, the Kzinti can attack the Klingons with their Home Fleet and Duke's Fleet. Under what conditions is the Baron's Fleet activated? I suggest that the Baron's Fleet is not activated and does NOT arrive until the turn AFTER Klingons (or the Lyrans) invade the Kzinti Hegemony. If the Klingons (or Lyrans, if the rules are changed to allow the Kzinti to attack them) do not invade and simply defend their territory (or fight in the NZ hexes), then the Baron's fleet stays inactive. Just a thought.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, June 20, 2013 - 05:13 pm: Edit

In the case that the Lyrans do not attack the Kzinti, the Count's Fleet currently must stay inactive (unless the Klingons violate it's territory).

There is no provision for the Kzinti to attack the Lyrans if this is the case. Should this be changed to allow the Kzinti to attack the Lyrans at some point, if the Lyrans have not attacked them?

Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only
Administer Page | Delete Conversation | Close Conversation | Move Conversation