|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, July 09, 2013 - 05:55 pm: Edit|
While 1/2 of the composite EW is still a consideration I find limiting production a more attractive idea. I have already added limits on scout production in the later updates but I still want more data...
Maybe limiting all scout conversions to the shipyard starbase only so that they compete with one's major conversions?...or just limiting +2EW scout conversions altogether while allowing 1EW scout conversions to continue.
|By Daniel Glenn Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 12:02 am: Edit|
I think simply limiting the availability of both scouts and especially heavy scouts will work best. Nothing in the SFU history shows that special sensor tech and EW capability drastically changed from the middle years to the General War. Availability, more than understanding of the technology would seem to be the logical restriction on EW capabilities during the four powers war.
|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 02:25 am: Edit|
(607.583) Scout Limitations: During this period, all scouts with an electronic warfare (EW) rating of “2” or higher must be produced in a capital shipyard conversion facility; limit one scout with an electronic warfare (EW) rating of “2” or higher per turn by any means. Other starbases may produce no more than one scout with an EW rating of “1” per turn by any means.
Comments are welcome.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 02:29 am: Edit|
This might be a problem for the Lyrans, they don't have any scouts that are EW=1.
|By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 06:29 am: Edit|
Maybe make the limit that SC3 scouts may only be produced by a capital conversion facility, rather than EW=2 scouts. This lets the Lyrans have normal SC production. I don't think anyone else has a 2 EW SC4 scout at this point.
|By Daniel Glenn Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 09:38 am: Edit|
The promblem is the number of scouts more than the size of them, though that does get to be a problem too. Scouts are just too useful. Some limit on the number of conversions per turn is going to be required in order to explain why scouts were only in limited deployment at the beginning of the general war. Even limiting heavy scouts to just the capital shipyard isn't going to stop players from puking out 3 to 5 small scouts per turn early on.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 09:41 am: Edit|
Keep in mind that this affects other empires too. The Fed SC is a size 4 unit, with 4 EW...
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 10:14 am: Edit|
>>(607.583) Scout Limitations: During this period, all scouts with an electronic warfare (EW) rating of “2” or higher must be produced in a capital shipyard conversion facility; limit one scout with an electronic warfare (EW) rating of “2” or higher per turn by any means. Other starbases may produce no more than one scout with an EW rating of “1” per turn by any means. >>
This hurts the Lyrans (as Richard pointed out), as they only have 2EW scouts as a minimum; It does drastically reduce the number of larger scouts in production (and D6Ds and CDs), but won't significantly reduce the number of small scouts (the Kzinti and Hydrans and Klingons will still churn out as many little scouts per turn as they can).
This seems, for my money, a klunkier solution than reducing aggregate EW by half, while being just as much of an arbitrary "technology limitation" (i.e. they are both totally arbitrary solutions that can be explained away with "technology limitation" tags)--having to keep track of what extra production limits and making sure everyone follows them seems like more of a drag than just dividing your EW in half each round.
And with the production limits, everyone is *still* going to be blasting out as many scouts as they can as often as they can--the Lyrans and Klingons will build a maximum number of D6S, CLS, and D6Ds; the Kzinti will build as many drone cruisers as Kzintily possible; the Hydrans will churn out PGSs (and/or survey ships, if they are available) as fast as they can. As the game encourages this, and everyone's economy supports it. There will be fewer of them, sure, but still, the notion of "EW isn't that significant, and we are just fine with these 1EW FF scouts" still doesn't really hold up.
With 1/2 aggregate EW, little 1 point FF scouts are still pretty good, the heavy scouts aren't *that* much better, and the mindset of "these little scouts are fine for now" seems not completely unreasonable.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 10:32 am: Edit|
Reducing the number of scouts will reduce the number of CLDs as well, at least for the Kzinti.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 10:41 am: Edit|
(I'm using, possibly inappropriately, "drone cruiser" and "CD" to cover both Kzinti CDs and CLDs, in the name of avoiding writing "CD and CLD" every time).
So just for the sake of illustration of extreme EW use in the 4PW, I'm having an approach battle at a Klingon SB currently, where the Klingons just met the Kzinti for the approach. Without a SB in the fight, the EW levels are:
-Klingon: 17EW (6xD6D on the line, D6S as free scout, a drone pod on the BT)
-Kzinti: 10EW (5xCLD on the line as as the free scout)
This is Turn 5.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 10:54 am: Edit|
Yep. That's the only battle hex that the coalition is able to do that on this turn.
Elsewhere (6 battle hexes) it's no where near that for the coalition.
The Kzinti have another battle hex where they could put up a lot of EW.
Really, based on the current 4PW, the real question is where did all the 4PW units go?
Perhaps some of the FO 4PW units will replace existing units when FO is updated. The Hydran TEM are already accounted for.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 11:34 am: Edit|
>>Yep. That's the only battle hex that the coalition is able to do that on this turn. >>
Sure. The point is that in the 4PW, extensive tactical EW is happening. A lot. Every battle hex has, like, 6-10 points of EW in use on each side. Sometimes, significantly more. There is no part of what is going on in the 4PW that supports the idea that the Kzinti and Hydrans were not going to expect the extreme levels of EW used by the Coalition that apparently caught them by surprise at the start of the GW (as established by existing universe history).
>>Elsewhere (6 battle hexes) it's no where near that for the coalition.>>
Certainly. But both sides in all those hexes are going to be putting up numerous scouts and generating as much EW as possible.
I'm not, like, complaining that the Coalition has too much EW. I'm simply pointing out that the existing established history does not support what is happening here.
>>Really, based on the current 4PW, the real question is where did all the 4PW units go?>>
Well, that is easily explained away as post war ship scrapping/sales/mothballing/whatever. All the empires (except maybe the Klingons?) all settle back into a Peace economy at the end of the 4PW, and for 5 or so years can't possibly justify supporting all those extra ships. So they scrap them or sell them off or mothball them or whatever. That makes sense.
That the Kzinti and Hydrans would then be surprised by the Coalition having all the EW in play at the start of the GW? Not so much.
Like, again, this isn't a huge balance issue at all. I think the scenario is working out just fine, even with the general Coalition EW advantage. But as, historically speaking, ADB has liked to keep its established history working well, there should be *something* that makes the Kzinti and Hydrans EW state at the start of the GW at least make *some* kind of sense. 1/2 aggregate EW probably could. Significant production limits on scouts might.
|By A. David Merritt Adm (Adm) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 12:16 pm: Edit|
I think the Fed 4EW SC is not relevant to the 4 PW setting, since the Feds sit it out historically, it's abilities are not revealed. If you have broken history enough that the Feds become involved, all you have really done is started the General War early.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 12:19 pm: Edit|
That isn't my point. It's that what we do here may have repercussions outside of the 4PW for other scenarios.
|By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 12:19 pm: Edit|
The Hermes may not have been a factor in the Four Powers War, but it was present in the Second Federation-Klingon War earlier in the same decade. The kind of changes being made to the western powers in the 4PW may also surface in any future revision of the 2FKW scenario. (The Klingons would presumably be under similar limitations as seen here, which would just leave the Federation's side of things to be re-examined in that case.)
It may also be a factor if the scenario for the Second Federation-Kzinti War is revised, too. (In that case, the rules in play for the Kzintis here may be the same for them there, too.)
EDIT: Speaking of the 2FKW, there is one Klingon ship type from that conflict which may, or may not, still be available to the Empire by the start of the Four Powers War: The LD5 light cruiser (R3.134) from SFB Module R8.
Despite the "L" designation, the LD5 is a true "modern" attempt at a light cruiser, with the first (and only) run of 4-7 ships built in the Y120s. However, it was considered to be something of a failure, so was not put into full-scale production (and nor was it upgraded in the General War to mount the engines of the D5 war cruiser).
If I recall correctly, there is one present in the (SL265) Battle of Iridima VII scenario from Captain's Log #37, an event set during the 2FKW. (I don't have that issue to hand right now, so apologies in advance if I've misremembered this. Unless I'm thinking of a different scenario?) There may have still been a handful of this class of ship on the Klingon order of battle by the start of the Four Powers War, but I believe they had been wholly phased out from the Deep Space Fleet (and shifted to the Klingon naval reserve) by the time the General War began.
Should the LD5 be considered as an addition to the list of "4PW" Klingon ships, and/or proposed for inclusion in either the revised FO countersheet or on the list of new Klingon counters for Tactical Operations instead?
FEDS: LD5 in 4PW - No. I am not going to recommend that. Besides, we don't have any counter slots available.
|By A. David Merritt Adm (Adm) on Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 01:01 pm: Edit|
Of course, I should do a better job of remembering the big picture.
|By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 12:40 pm: Edit|
My own thought is that if there's some sort of 4PW limit on scout production that goes away later, then it's probably due to a limited ability to build special sensors. In which case a per year maximum production of mobile unit EW might be the way to go.
If everyone can build 4 EW per year, and that's it, then a line with 6xD6D and a D6S in the free scout slot becomes a bit less likely.
In the early years only the vulcans can put EW on a moving unit at all. In the 4PW era scouts are rare, by the general war they're common.
|By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 02:04 pm: Edit|
Interesting thought Doug, Special Sensors in the 4PW being a limited production item like SFGs, WCs, and PPDs makes an interesting idea.
|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 03:00 pm: Edit|
So how's this suggestion...
(607.583) Scout Limitations: During this period, all scouts with an electronic warfare (EW) rating of “3” or higher must be produced in a capital shipyard conversion facility; limit one scout with an electronic warfare (EW) rating of “3” or higher per turn by any means. Other starbases may produce no more than one scout unit per turn by any means. Other empire specific restrictions may also apply.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 03:38 pm: Edit|
It doesn't really help. With preplanning, even if down a starbase, each of the empires in 4PW could produce at least four scouts a turn. You would have to make sure to pull back units to convert if you didn't have an FF scout.
(FF scouts could be built as an FF and then converted at every starbase).
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 03:42 pm: Edit|
The Kzinti will still be able to convert or build 2 DBB ships a turn (with 2 EW), which is where it currently is. It will reduce the LAS units they can build to one a year, which I think is where it already is.
The Klingons won't be able to build both an LAS and a D6S in the same year, but otherwise not a lot of effect on them.
The Lyrans can make one CLS a turn currently, so this will halve the number of such units. Also, they won't be able to build a LAS and CLS in the same year.
This all assumes that LAS count as a three point scout under the above limitations.
The only 3 point scout the Hydrans have is the LAS (during the 4PW), which they can only build once per year, so no change for them.
|By Daniel Glenn Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Friday, July 12, 2013 - 09:42 am: Edit|
There are more than enough starbases to puke out half a dozen small scouts each turn and then some even when limiting scouts to one per base. Even the limit of only converting 3EW scouts at the shipyard SB isn't much of a limit. Only the Lyrans build one that isn't a major conversion so that isn't really limiting anybody else (not counting Aux ships). The Klingon and Kzinti will still crank out 2EW drone ships left and right.
I like the idea of limiting the amount of ship based EW to 4EW per turn by any means. That would really cut down the EW overflow and make players think about what they're building. And I think most players can count to 4 well enough that it won't really be a burden on them or slow the game. That's not as tight a restriction as 1 conversion per turn and 1 new construction per year (as I proposed earlier), but has nearly the same effect.
The truth is, there has to be some reason behind the front lines for why EW remained limited prior to the General War. The only way to express it that makes sense is to dramatically limit scout production even more than you are proposing. Otherwise, in 5 turns the Kzinti and Klingons will each have 25 to 30 drone cruisers floating around and the Lyran will have 5 CLS and 18 SC. No other conversions in the GW era get you such bang for your buck.
|By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, July 12, 2013 - 09:46 am: Edit|
Would going to a limit of 4EW per year (rather than per turn) go too far in the opposite direction, or might a 4EW per turn limit (as Daniel suggests above) not quite be enough to get things down to where they need to go in order to work historically?
|By Daniel Glenn Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Friday, July 12, 2013 - 10:04 am: Edit|
I think a limit of 4EW is pretty close to the mark, actually. You might make the limit 5EW if you include Aux ships in the limit. That would let the Hydran produce an Aux and a pair of SC hulls or up to 5 SC; the Lyran a CLS or LAS, and a SC; the Kzinti a pair of CLDs and an SF; and the Klingons a D6S or 2D6D, and an F5S on any given turn. That's still a lot of EW, but way less than one large scout and 4 or 5 small ones per turn. It gets you down to 2 or 3 scouts per turn instead of 5 or 6 per turn.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, July 12, 2013 - 06:17 pm: Edit|
>>(607.583) Scout Limitations: During this period, all scouts with an electronic warfare (EW) rating of “3” or higher must be produced in a capital shipyard conversion facility; limit one scout with an electronic warfare (EW) rating of “3” or higher per turn by any means. Other starbases may produce no more than one scout unit per turn by any means. Other empire specific restrictions may also apply.>>
The problems here are that:
A) There aren't really *that* many things you need to Major Convert in the 4PW; no Maulers, no big carriers, Lyrans can't turn CAs into DNs, etc. Such that using a Major Conversion to make a big scout is hardly a significant issue.
B) There are very few scouts in the 4PW era that this covers--I think think it is just the D6S and the Lyran CLS (ignoring the Fed SC), and they are already limited to 1 per year each.
What you are going to get with this restriction is what you already get--a maximum number of Drone/Scout ships (D6Ds, Kzinti CD/CLDs) as allowed by the current production limits (i.e. 1xD6D a turn; 1xCD+3xCLD a year for the Kzinti) and then as many big scouts as already currently allowed by the production limits (1xD6S and 1xLyrn CLS per year). Other than, like, preventing the Hydrans from converting, like, 9xSC from HNs on the first turn (which is something I did) by virtue of the "1xSC conversion per SB" clause, I can't see that the above rule idea would have any significant impact on 4PW scout production.
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