|By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 07:16 pm: Edit|
I did not know his question was specific to the 4PW I will admit to not considering were he posted it, my bad.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 05:55 am: Edit|
1) (607.583) Scout Limitations: During this period, one scout of any size may be produced once per year by any means at the capital shipyard. In addition, one size class 4 scout may be produced at rate of one per TURN by any means plus any one auxiliary scout per YEAR. Other empire specific production restrictions still apply.
2) Victory Points for end of game captured and disrupted provinces only count if the capturing or disrupting ship is in supply.
3) Victory Points for end of game captured and disrupted provinces should be reduced (i.e. something along the lines of 2 points for captured and 1 point for disrupted).
Peter and my next game will be starting shortly. I would like to go with your suggestions here, Peter.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 12:02 pm: Edit|
I'm in favor of these:
-Let's use the scout rule as is above, which results in 3 scouts and an Aux per year, of which one may be SC3 (i.e. D6D/CLD/CD/CLS are the only SC3 scouts in this rules set, IIRC).
-Captured/disrupted provinces only count at the end of the game if the ships in them are in supply.
-Let's go with 2 points for a captured province and 1 point for a disrupted province, with the above limitation.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 12:12 pm: Edit|
Based on the rules we are using, if you got some time, could you go over the listed OOBs and figure out what ships should be deleted and/or replaced by other units (like, for example, Penal ships should be, I'd imagine, get replaced by base hulls; all the G ships are good; some of the Auxes might need to be deleted?; anything else I missed?)
|By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 02:20 pm: Edit|
Earlier in the discussion there was talk of reducing the EP's you get as a balance measure and also to reflect that the support represented by the EP's was not as developed as it would be by Y168 in light of the 4PW experience.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 02:33 pm: Edit|
Yes, provinces only give half the EP that they do in the general war.
We are aware of the previous discussions; Peter and I were pretty heavily involved in them.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 06:42 am: Edit|
"DUKE'S FLEET: Deploy within two hexes of Klingon NZ east of 10xx inclusive except hexes 1704. " should probably be "DUKE'S FLEET: Deploy within two hexes of Klingon NZ east of 10xx inclusive except hex 1704."
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 06:43 am: Edit|
It is possible that it is unbalancing to let the Lyran Homefleet setup in provinces 0408 and 0608 rather than just at those two hexes, as it allows them to setup their Home Fleet two hexes from the Enemy's Blood Starbase. This allows more Lyran ships to defend than otherwise and is perhaps not realistic due to tensions from the just ended Civil War and no actual knowledge of the imminent Hydran attack.
|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 09:18 am: Edit|
I really don't want to mess with fleet setup areas unless they are obvious mistakes.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 09:32 am: Edit|
In the original scenario in the existing version of Fighter Operations, the Lyran Home Fleet is in fact limited to just the hexes of 0408 and 0608.
This was changed to those provinces in the updated version. In my first playtest, I did not notice this, and did not put any ships from the Lyran Home Fleet in 0409 (which is two hexes and in reaction range of the Enemy's Blood Starbase).
Despite this, Peter Bakija commented that the fight seemed harder than it used to be for the Hydrans on turn one at the Enemy's Blood Starbase.
Now, he has noticed the change in our new game and has setup the Home Fleet ships of the Lyrans (other than those designated as a reserve fleet) within two hexes of the Enemy's Blood Starbase, which will make the fight that much harder for the Hydrans.
I don't think this change should have been done from the original scenario.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 11:43 am: Edit|
It is possible that those ships there (in 0409) will be significant to the fight. I suspect that the lack of Admirals in this version of the game (we are using CO and FO, not an unlikely version of the rules set) and the Hydrans having the ability to use 2 command points to the Lyran's 0 command points will significantly up the odds for the Hydrans.
I think what made the fight so hard for the Hydrans last time was that the Lyrans had an Admiral in the fight (+1 ship) and the Hydrans did not due to the set up rules at the time we played that part of the game (so the Hydrans only had a Command Point ships for +1, which was a wash). With the current scenario, the Hydrans can use 2 command point ships (+2 ships) and the Lyrans can't use any (and no Admirals available due to just using CO and FO), meaning the Hydrans will have a significant edge over the Lyrans, I'd imagne.
Also, apparently, the Lyran Civil War rule results in the Lyrans starting with upwards of 32 cripples, of which up to 10 can be pre-emptively dead. Which might also be a problem.
Let's see how it goes and see what happens. I think we both are under the impression that the Alliance totally have the upper hand in this scenario. Maybe the extra ships in the T1 SB fight might tilt the balance a bit?
|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 09:13 am: Edit|
Then it appears that this was a typo in the current update?
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 09:31 am: Edit|
I would think so. It is giving the Lyrans the chance to add ten more ships to the EB SB, which was probably not intended.
What would do you suggest that we should do about it?
|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 09:45 am: Edit|
That s a significant change from the original; I suspect that the hex number was inadvertently changed to the province number by mistake when I updated the set up. Please retain the hex number set up.
Lar, Turtle, or Stew:
Please confirm that this was my typo from the original FO and/or the Carrier War module scenario.
|By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 12:00 pm: Edit|
My copy of FO has the Lyran Home Fleet set up being 0408 and 0608. To catch up on the discussion I read the entire file and constructed a 607 Word folder that has the same set up from the most recent posts I could find.
|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 01:38 pm: Edit|
I don't know if you saw this but unit replacements are already covered by the updated rules.
(607.151) Unit Replacements: If players choose not to use a given module and its associated units, then players can substitute another ship for the specialty ship from the unused module on a one-for-one basis as long as the substitution is available for that year and is not a limited or restricted production ship. Specialty Ships (including, drone, commando, transport, penal, diplomatic, etc.): Substitute another available standard warship or scout (if the ship were also a scout) of the same basic hull or smaller size class from basic F&E.
(607.152) Other Non-Ship Units and Counters: Remove these from play if their associated module is not being used (includes: monitors, auxiliaries, APTs, PTRs, PTs, POLs, MMGs, ADMs, etc.).
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 03:32 pm: Edit|
I did see that--I was just not completely clear on what units needed replacing based on the rules set we are using (i.e. Diplomatic Ships and Penal Ships get replaced, G ships don't, etc.). We got it figured out now.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 03:51 pm: Edit|
One thing I am going to suggest:
>>(607.21) LYRAN CIVIL WAR
To reflect unreplaced casualties from the just-ended Lyran Civil War, each Lyran fleet must distribute 40 points of damage to their assigned warships. The distribution of this damage must include damaging at least two size class-3 line ships per fleet and no more than two support ships per fleet; auxiliary units cannot be used to meet this requirement. Once the damage is distributed the Lyran player then rolls one die per crippled ship; if a one is rolled on the die, then the ship is destroyed with no salvage or depot assignment (it is simply removed from play). The ships destroyed as part of the civil war casualties do not count toward victory conditions but all unrepaired ships will be penalized under the final victory conditions. >>
So this seems a tad brutal on the Lyrans, especially given how due to pure random chance, the Lyrans can get set really far back from the get go. In the game that I am currently starting, just due to the wonders of the random number generator, the Lyrans lost *10* of 32 crippled ships from the Civil War. The Lyrans had to cripple 8 ships from each fleet to make it to 40 points per fleet, so they are starting the game with 32 crippled ships, before some die. Then, due to the random nature of the ship death, while one would expect somewhere between 4-6 ships to get killed, it is clearly not impossible for more ships to die.
In my hands, the Lyrans lost 10 ships (about twice as many as expected). Which is kind of a brutal start. Especially given that the Lyrans are already likely fighting an uphill fight.
I'd suggest that the Civil War casualties be set at a fixed number of dead ships--something like "Cripple 40 points of ships from each fleet. Then randomly select 1 crippled ship from each fleet and destroy it." Simple and not an excessively random rule that affects game balance too much.
|By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 07:56 pm: Edit|
FO (2004) has the Lyran Home in 408/608 (607.32)
|By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 12:36 am: Edit|
Chuck and I play tested the Civil War rolls multiple times and on multiple occasions at both 30 damage and 40 damage. 40 was the number, as it had to be a tougher pill to swallow.
Chuck and I began the reconstruction with 5 goals in mind.
1. Balanced (the evolution of the expansions swung this thing out of balance...the Coalition had loads of EP in the original game to play with).
2. Fun to play (with a chance for both sides to win...See #1).
3. Something that more reflects the brutality of a Civil War. In light of the CW module coming the original rules just couldn't give a feel of what CW would do to a warp nation.
4. Something the F&E players would be able to have a choice on for deciding what gets damaged (as they would in real combat rounds). This means they get to think about their own strategy (ship numbers, combat factors, economy of repairs) and apply it.
5. A Randomness Factor (something for the Lyran players to worry about as they made their choices in damage...and something for the Hydrans to root for early)
If there were little risk of having something die players would hit some heavy units and be done with the damage. With the die roll players will consider several lesser ships they don't mind as much to lose. Of course it is a fine line between less 'death' die rolls and crippling less ships. Another consideration is economics. Even the most Frugal Lyran player is going to shell out some economy on the repair of the fleets. (Maybeh a factor that played into why the Hydrans thought it was a good time to attack).
The DD is the best, giving up 5 for 1EP in repair. The FF give up 4 for 1EP. 2xDD burn 10 damage and repair for 2 EP.
One of each (DD&FF) burn 9 and repairs for the same as if you did a CC. The exception is the Tug is a risk but you can drop the BP on it then burn 12 damage that repairs for 2 EP (I did this against Chuck and lost...BIG risk though).
You are totally correct that there is an increased chance of losing the EB SB. I suppose if it really gets out of hand and both players decide re rolls could be made. Our second run through had my Home Fleet feel the burn as it lost the most (weakend for RESV response mode).
An alternate rule idea I had jotted down that we didn't flesh out or apply was that maybe a player could earn a pass on a die roll by deciding to kill a ship. Essentially say you have 24 crippled ships (6 crips per fleet). You decide before the rolls are made that you want to kill one ship per fleet in order to earn a free pass on a ship. so you whack a FF to cover a capital ship then roll the rest out as exposed. This idea never really made it out of the notes phase though so not sure if it is fair or what effect or abuse it would have.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 08:51 am: Edit|
>>If there were little risk of having something die players would hit some heavy units and be done with the damage. With the die roll players will consider several lesser ships they don't mind as much to lose.>>
The 40 damage per fleet seems totally reasonable. Losing a few random ships also seems totally reasonable. But the complete randomness that is losing twice as many ships as would be expected is both possible and something that I suspect is best to figure out a way to avoid. Like, I think, as it stands, the Coalition are already going to be fighting uphill (in terms of actually winning the game) from the start. If the Lyrans then lose a bunch more ships at the start of the game due to just pure randomness, that is putting them in even a deeper hole, due to, well, just random chance. Which is not a good thing, for my money.
>>You are totally correct that there is an increased chance of losing the EB SB.>>
I don't think there is any chance of the Lyrans *not* losing the EB SB, even *before* losing a bunch of ships randomly. I don't think this is a problem. But I do think the Lyrans accidentally starting the game down 10 ships instead of, like, 5 is problematic. Some amount of randomness is reasonable, I'd say. That much ability for swing in ship numbers, however, is probably something that should be minimized.
|By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 09:25 pm: Edit|
We did not have that experience of the SB loss T1A but it was very close each time. But then we did not have your 10 ship loss (well not mostly concentrated in that fleet).
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 07:56 am: Edit|
>>We did not have that experience of the SB loss T1A but it was very close each time.>>
If the Lyrans have an Admiral (and the Hydrans *don't* have an Admiral, which was the case the previous time Richard and I played this scenario, due to the way setup was written at the time), I can certainly see the EB SB not get killed on T1, but then it will certainly get finished off on T2 (which is what happened in the previous game).
If the Lyrans *don't* have an Admiral (as you are just using FO and CO, as we are currently, which seems like a completely reasonable rules set to expect folks to use to play this scenario), with the Hydrans attacking with 2 command points (and the Lyrans having none, as they haven't had a turn yet), I can't imagine that the EB SB can survive.
And for clarity, my issue with the Lyran Civil War casualties is not that it makes killing the EB SB too easy. It is that it is a significant balance point that is determined completely by random--if the Lyrans luck out and only lose 1 crippled ship to Civil War, they are starting the scenario way ahead. If they get hosed and lose 10 crippled ships to the Civil War, they are starting the game in a significant hole. It seems like this should not be something that is determined completely by random.
I mean, determining *what* ships are lost randomly seems completely reasonable. And some amount of variation in number of dead ships also seems random. But that there is the possibility of losing between 0 and 10+ ships seems like an unsatisfying way to determine a level of balance in a scenario.
Limiting the number of ships that the Lyrans can lose (i.e. minimum and maximum) to the start Civil War seems like a reasonable thing to do here. Or give them a set number they need to lose (determined randomly). And allow players to adjust this number as an intentional balance factor. But as it stands, it is a wildly random factor that is going to have a significant impact on the game as a whole.
|By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 07:25 pm: Edit|
Hmmm, if I have the nubmers right, there were 16 cripples (8 CL, 8 FF) in which 10 were destroyed. The average should be about 3 so I'd have to say you were very unlucky in that regard...
|By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 08:23 pm: Edit|
Chuck, Carrier War also used 408/608 for the Lyran Home Fleet so I presume they are hex numbers...
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