F&E Research Team:

Using F&E map "P" from SFB Module C6 can someone calculate the ALTERNATE history economies for Y168 for the Gorns, Romulans and ISC empires? Please list the NUMBER of on-map provinces, on-map major and minor planets, off-map provinces, and off-map major and minor planets used to achieve the final economy numbers. When someone posts their results I will need someone else to check and confirm those results.

Please only use the OFFICIAL MAP "P" from C6 and not any play test versions you might have access to.

To cut down on clutter, I ask that you please refrain from posting your regrets for not owning C6.

Thanks,
FEDS

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 09:45 pm: Edit

From map P:

Paravian on map provinces: 12.
Paravian on map minor planets: 3.
Paravian on map major planets: 0.

Paravian off-map provinces: unknown.
Paravian off-map minor planets: unknown.
Paravian off-map major planets: unknown.

Total eco: at least 33.

I assume hex 5702 is the location of the capital. There is no information as to what planets (major or minor) are in that hex. That hex is not part of any province. I do not know if it is supposed to be treated as a province. I don't think any data for the Paravian off-map contents has been published, other than the SB shown on map P. FEAR concurs, although the history indicates there was only one system at 5702, the number and size of the planets is unknown, also the off map area is unknown. The alternate histories also confuse this issue even more.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 09:52 pm: Edit

From map P:

ISC on map provinces: 19.
ISC on map minor planets: 3.
ISC on map major planets: 2.

From F&E ISC WAR: FEAR notes that the ISC Distance Zone is 6 hexes smaller in the original direction it was originally, and the Romulan Off Map is barren. So, some of those off map planets/provinces could be part of the Paravian Farnest or not in play at all. The capital should be unchanged.

ISC offmap provinces: 8.
ISC offmap minor planets: 1.
ISC offmap major planets: 2.

ISC capital minor planets: 8.
ISC capital major planets: 7.

Total eco: 145.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 09:58 pm: Edit

From map P and the normal map (map P does not show all of Gorn space):

Gorn on map provinces: 15.
Gorn on map minor planets (not including any of the Ghdar systems): 3.
Gorn on map major planets (not including any of the Ghdar systems): 0.

From F&E2010: FEAR notes that the Gorn off-map is 4.5 hexes less in Map P, and a portion of the Gorn off-map could be used for the Paravian Farnest, or not used at all. The Capital should be unchanged.

Gorn offmap provinces: 3.
Gorn offmap minor planets: 2.
Gorn offmap major planets: 0.

Gorn capital hexes (all Ghdar systems) minor planets: 3.
Gorn capital hexes (all Ghdar systems) major planets: 3.

Total eco: 75.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 10:10 pm: Edit

From map P and the normal map (map P does not show all of Romulan space):

Romulan on map provinces: 28.
Romulan on map minor planets (not including any of the Remus or Romulus systems): 3.
Romulan on map major planets (not including any of the Remus or Romulus systems): 1.

From F&E2010:

Romulan offmap provinces: 0.
Romulan offmap minor planets: 0.
Romulan offmap major planets: 0.

Romulan capital hexes (all Romulus and Remus systems) minor planets: 8.
Romulan capital hexes (all Romulus and Remus systems) major planets: 2.

Total eco: 104. FEAR concurs

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Richard:

If it helps, SVC posted a larger version of Mapsheet P over in this archive from the Paravian C6 development thread. The remaining "on-map" Gorn and Romulan provinces are on there.

Also, page 22 of the C6 preview file indicates the presence of at least one industrial world in the off-map area, Wingatha. (This is the world which the historical Paravian survivors flee to, and where the "raider" Paravians in Alternate History #2 come from.) Depending on the point of divergence between alternate histories, Wingatha may also exist as a major planet in Mapsheet P's Farnest.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 10:22 pm: Edit

It does not help. Chuck requested that the mapsheet from Module C6 be used, not any playtest material.

Thank you though. FEAR concurs, playtest material outside scope of research.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 10:36 pm: Edit

In that case, the version of Mapsheet P that is in C6 was duplicated in this preview PDF, in case anyone wanted to verify the above data.

(That PDF was created and posted after C6 was published, so the pages included therein should be identical to those in the print module, later errata updates notwithstanding.)

The reference to Wingatha posted above is also from that file.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 11:34 pm: Edit

The mapsheet in that preview has a different page number and page layout than the one in module C6. I don't know if it's the same map or if there are any differences. Have you verified that it IS identical, Gary?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, February 19, 2014 - 09:23 am: Edit

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Quote:

FEAR notes that the ISC Distance Zone is 6 hexes smaller in the original direction it was originally, and the Romulan Off Map is barren. So, some of those off map planets/provinces could be part of the Paravian Farnest or not in play at all. The capital should be unchanged.

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By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, February 19, 2014 - 09:26 am: Edit

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Quote:

FEAR notes that the Gorn off-map is 4.5 hexes less in Map P, and a portion of the Gorn off-map could be used for the Paravian Farnest, or not used at all. The Capital should be unchanged.

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, February 19, 2014 - 10:37 pm: Edit

I need someone to propose a historically plausible OOB for the Tholians for the historical start of their war with the Seltorians during the General War. Must use their OOB and schedule from Winds of Fire as basis to grow their fleet but be mindful of their ISC War OOB. Assume addional funding transfers from Alliance at 15 EP per turn and remember to use ALL F&E modules, XTPs, and to show all work. Research of SFB R-sections and scenarios is required to include required units and account for historically destroyed units. Unbuilt variants and conjectural units are not permitted. I cannot stress hard enough the need for this OOB to be historically plausible.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, February 20, 2014 - 02:13 am: Edit

I will take on the Tholian OOB.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, February 20, 2014 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Chuck,

Do you just need just T28 when the Selts arrive or do you want me to build it out through the ISC War start?

Ryan

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, February 20, 2014 - 04:44 pm: Edit

We need the T28 Tholian OOB only but you have be able to get reasonably to the ISC War Tholian OOB. So if a unit is limited to one per year and ISC War calls for 10 of that unit then back up four years and we'll need 6 of the unit on the Tholian OOB of Y182; carriers/dreadnoughts/Neo-Tholian/one-off hulls need to be tracked carefully. Overbuilds/accelerated/override production should be used as a last resort.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, February 20, 2014 - 07:50 pm: Edit

Looking at WoF and I think that OOB is seriously outdated. I'd like to use Maelstrom which is more recent production as a starting point. Maelstrom is after Operation Nutcracker fails and I think that might be a better starting point.

As an aside we seriously need to relook the Tholian at start OOB based on what I see in Maelstrom. First glance makes me wonder how they could build that.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, February 20, 2014 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Failed attacks result in salvaging enemy ships over webbed locations.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, February 20, 2014 - 08:20 pm: Edit

WoF starts after the Tholians have rebuilt their base network and planet.

Maelstrom is 2.5 yrs earlier than WoF, after Op Nutcracker fails and the rebuilding has started.

Maelstrom starts with 79 SE + depot ships. Five turns later WoF has 55 SE.

WoF is WAY out of date and needs updating for Adv Ops based on what I see right now. Additional we need to double check Gale Force Tholians to see if they can get to the Maelstrom OOB numbers.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Thursday, February 20, 2014 - 09:48 pm: Edit

If the Tholians are anything like some of the other Maelstrom OOBs, then they have a far larger OOB than what is historically reasonable at that point. Quite frankly, IMO, Maelstrom is a mess from a historical OOB standpoint, and probably shouldn't be used as the basis for building OOBs for other scenarios. (Still a darn fun scenario, it's just very much divorced from "actual" history.)

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Friday, February 21, 2014 - 03:19 am: Edit

Thanks Jason. I'll work of off WoF and see if I can get to ISC War.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, February 21, 2014 - 05:37 am: Edit

Please remember that AO with WoF was done in 2003 using the now out-of-date Carrier War, Marine Ops and Special Ops modules. Tholian WARSHIPS additions may have been overlooked when we issued FO and CO a decade ago. We can make Tholian recommendations for ADB consideration when we update FO, CO, AO, PO, and SO.