|By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 01:00 am: Edit|
All of these suggestions from Richard seem totally sound, although in the name of some sort of simplicity, maybe making the Vudar rule an abstract one (i.e. after a certain point, the Hydrans can't enter a few southern Klingon provinces or something) rather than adding more counters to the map that require a whole set of extra rules (given that the scenario comes in FO where the Vudar are not at all near :-).
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 11:36 am: Edit|
The scenario already has an optional section about using the Vudar if you'd like, and gives information on where to put them and what ships to use, etc.
Just for the sake of scenario balance, however, I'd be ok with an arbitrary "after turn X, the Hydrans can't enter Provinces Y and Z, due to the Vudar" or something. That is abstract, doesn't require more stuff on the map, and can be replaced with the Vudar rules that are already discussed in the scenario should you be inclined.
|By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 04:46 pm: Edit|
I did mention (607.72) in that proposed addition, but the point I was trying to get at was one of perception in presentation.
Yes, the Vudar rules are already listed as an option, but there is a difference between allowing for players to add them in as opposed to encouraging them to do so.
That might still leave many players willing to go with an abstraction rather than bother with adding in the Vudar as a fifth faction; but perhaps it might be more viable to propose using them if there is a note in the "main" scenario pointing out their historical presence in the affected provinces.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 06:43 pm: Edit|
So the short version of suggestions for the scenario from Richard and myself:
-The limit on big scouts seems reasonable and kind of a no brainer (i.e. only 1x size class 3/EW3+ scout per year; 1 small scout per turn).
-There should be a change to end of game victory points (i.e. make points for holding provinces or planets on the last turn much less significant; there are various suggestions up above, but at the very least, make them half as much as they are now and require that captured provinces be in supply).
-The Alliance is probably a little too strong overall (Hydrans a lot; Kzinti not as much; averaging out to a little too strong). Allowing the Coalition to get a few ships released from their unreleased fleets (Far Stars/Klingon Home) under certain circumstances is probably a good idea.
-The start of game "Lyran Civil War" damage should be less random (i.e. the rule of "roll a die for each crippled ship, and on a 1, it is killed" has too much opportunity for random damage to game balance); something that involves a fixed number of killed ships rather than a random one is likely a good way to go.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 06:57 pm: Edit|
I am in agreement with Peter's suggestions.
In addition, I'd like to see the Vudar used as a defensive buffer (in their local area) against the Hydrans, even without the Minor Empires expansion. Without the expansion, a simple rule disallowing the Hydrans from attacking the Vudar area would probably be sufficient (alternatively provide a small Klingon force to sub for Vudar units that are only released if the Hydrans attack the Vudar area).
An idea I just had is to add a variant where the Seltorians show up to fight the Tholians, as per the normal rules, except of course it is the 4PW. That might take to much work to figure out at this late date, however. Perhaps it should be a rule added in MINOR EMPIRES as a variant for 4PW once the Minor Empires expansion is released.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 07:38 pm: Edit|
I'm totally good with a Vudar Buffer rule, mostly in an abstract sense (i.e. the Hydrans can't enter Provinces X and Y after a certain point).
|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 01:36 pm: Edit|
These are reasonable. I just haven't had time to edit the updated 4PW scenario and post it. Will work it after CL48 duties are complete.
|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 06:58 am: Edit|
A REVISED AND UPDATED DRAFT OF THE 4PW SCENARIO (v4.0) WAS POSTED AT 0400 PST 22 JAN 2014.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 07:34 am: Edit|
607.73 'Hydrana' should probably be Hydrans'.
|By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 10:10 am: Edit|
(607.27): Could a line be added to this rule encouraging the inclusion of the Vudar as a playable faction under (607.72) in place of this abstraction, if the player/s have a copy of Minor Empires to make use of? (And if a player wishes to do this, would they count as being at Limited War or at full Wartime?)
Or to put it another way, would an active Vudar player "historically" make use of (607.721) and (607.722), but ignore (607.723) (since that would represent a "full war" option) and remain at Limited War within its four deployment provinces (unless the Alliance attacks the Vudar capital hex, in which point the Vudar could go to a full War footing)?
Also, if the Alliance make it into the Vudar capital hex prior to Y159F, should there be a note accounting for an early Vudar activation (be it abstracted out in the absence of ME, or directly represented using the rules and counters in that pending module)?
(607.35): Given the inclusion of (607.27), there may be grounds for Y159F to be presented as a separate turn entry, in order to account for the increased activity in the Vudar patrol area (or the activation, be it full or limited, of the Vudar as a playable faction if using ME).
(607.31): The line that currently reads "The first Coalition player turn occurs during Y182S" should refer to Y158S instead.
(607.0): In light of (607.27), I request adding a line or two to the historical writeup for the Four Powers War, in order to formalize the (limited) presence of the Vudar Enclave in the conflict. There is already a mention of the effect of the war on the LDR, so a Vudar mention in the same vein would be welcome.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 11:19 am: Edit|
On initial perusal of the newly posted scenario, it doesn't look like anything has changed at all. The VP scores are all the same, the fleet release schedules are all the same. I mean, I might be highly confused, but it looks exactly the same as it was the last time.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 11:20 am: Edit|
No, wait. The one I can find is listed as 3.9. Where is 4.0?
|By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 - 11:36 am: Edit|
Try this link. (It's been moved from its old place in the archive order.)
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 06:18 pm: Edit|
Does enemy capital planet (see below) mean just the single capital planet itself (ie Lyrantan Hydrax Kzintai Klinshai), any planet in the capital system, or any planet in the capital hex?
each enemy capital planet ever devastated: 6
each enemy capital planet ever captured: 12
each enemy capital planet held for one turn at end: 18
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 08:00 pm: Edit|
I'm pretty sure it is "planet in enemy capital". At least that is certainly how we have been playing it.
|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 03:39 am: Edit|
The "capital" planet -- but not the other planets in the capital system -- they are just treated as any other majors/minors.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 10:16 am: Edit|
Oh. Huh. That isn't how we have been scoring them up till this point. That is a problem.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 10:52 am: Edit|
We can just adjust the score, it's easy.
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 11:02 am: Edit|
Well, more a problem in the sense that the Coalition/Alliance score disparity is going to become even larger.
|By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 08:00 pm: Edit|
The Klingon OOB specifies that they must pay for full mothball activations, but send all activated ships to the Romulans starting Y159S.
SFB Rule R4.10 states that the Klingons did not begin delivering E4s to the Romulans until Y168, consistent with the Master Ship Chart YIS of 168 for the K4R. Therefore, the Klingons should be required to give only the activated D6 and F5 hulls to the Romulans.
Jason E. Schaff - 01/30/2014
|By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 08:10 pm: Edit|
While that is certainly reflective of history, it isn't really worth worrying about--the Mothball Activations for the Klingons in this scenario is nothing more than a 4EP per turn money sink. The ships never see play, the counters are never put on the board, and the composition of the mothball fleet is never remotely relevant to the game. The rule could simply be "Starting in y159S, the Klingons must spend subtract 4EP per turn from their income to represent sending ships to the Romulans.", and it wouldn't make a difference.
|By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 08:26 pm: Edit|
I can't remember, is there any rule that could cause actual activation of mothball ships? Or maybe a balance variant?
|By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 08:43 pm: Edit|
Since it is a historical scenario we still got to get it right. One may never know if the scenario would be used as the basis of other follow-on scenarios.
|By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 08:08 pm: Edit|
Peter, the mothball activations for the Klingons are very relevant to them. Those activations are sent to the Romulans putting more pressure on the Federation for a completely different direction.
Chuck is very correct in that as a historical scenario we need to get it right.
These activations have consequences on the GW Order of Battle for every historical scenario. As you may have seen in other posts in other topics.
|By Charles J Shevlin (Chass22) on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 06:21 am: Edit|
You could change the 24 E4 in the mothball reserve to 24 F4. To represent the 20 or so ships sent to the Romulans. Have the E4 added to the mothball reserve in the 5 and 1/2 years after the 4 powers war. If needed by the Klingons use E3 counters.
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