Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board

Archive through April 02, 2014

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E PRODUCTS: F&E Staff Product Development Projects: Archive through April 02, 2014

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Research Teams/F&E Staff:

I want to do two independent audits of ALL empires' fighter introduction dates, base fighter module available dates, fist carriers and LAV/LAH/SAV/SAH available dates. While developing a scenario for CL48 I found inconsistencies with Gorn SIT data that just didn't make sense. I only want references that use actual data to backup any assertions so your source data can only come from Module G3 MSC (or equivalent), online SITs, F&E (7xx.0) series data, SFB R-Sections.

With an update to FO pending soon, I want to get any errors corrected. I want two independent parties to post their report here along with any strange findings. First two volunteers please speak up here and let me know when you can have the data available.

FEDS SEND

Use this format:
EMPIRE Fed w/A-20 Fed w/ F-111 Klingon Romulan Kzinti Gorn Tholian Orion Hydran Hydran w/X-Ftrs Lyran ISC LDR Vudar
Fighter Intro Date - -
Fighter Module Dates (SIT/MSC) - -
SAV Dates (SIT/MSC) - -
LAV Dates (SIT/MSC) - -
1st True Carrier Ship - -
Carrier Dates (SIT/MSC) - -
Hvy Ftr Intro Dates (SIT/MSC)
Hvy Ftr Module Dates (SIT/MSC)
SAH Dates (SIT/MSC)
LAH Dates (SIT/MSC)
1st HF Carrier Ship
HF Carrier Ship Dates (SIT/MSC)

Hydran X-Fighters: Use the HF cells in the X-Ftr column
LDR/Vudar: May use CL data.
If data does NOT exist then report "No Data"

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 07:09 pm: Edit

I would volunteer, but I lack the G3 module.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Lyran (SIT/MSC)
Ftr Intro - Y165 (assumed/NF)
HBM - Y165 (OL/NF) [Y130 for shuttles]
SAV - Y168 (OL/NF)
LAV - Y165 (OL/NF)
1st - LCV Y167 / DDV Y169 / PV Y173=170 / CVL-CVT Y171 / CV Y172 / DWV-CVD 173 / CVM-CVP Y174 / CVA Y175 / NCV Y176 / LTV Y177 / BCV Y181
HvFtr - Y178F (AO/NHF)
HFM - NA (OL/NHF)
SAH - Y177 (OL/NHF)
LAH - Y178 (OL/NHF)
1st - CSV Y176 / CVH Y178F / NSV Y180

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 09:52 pm: Edit

I just need the date and type of each empires' very first carrier and HF carrier - not all of them; one carrier and its MSC date. If two carriers are built in the same year the pick the largest carrier with the most fighters.

I want the dates of their base FIGHTER modules not shuttles modules.

What does OL NF NHF mean? IF the data is NOT available then report "No Data", for reporting data (SIT/MSC) such as "Y165/No Data". This reports that the SITs report Y165; the MSC has no data.

Please post in table format as requested as I don't have the time to reformat everyone's reports correctly.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 10:04 pm: Edit

How do you post in a table format?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 11:49 pm: Edit

Use a "\" then "table{CUT & PASTE YOUR EXCEL DATA CELLS HERE}" with no spaces after the backslash and the word "table".

The parentheses {} are also required.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 12:05 am: Edit

Nifty, thanks Chuck. I'll see what I can get you in a couple of days.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 10:21 am: Edit

EMPIRE ISC
Fighter Intro Date Y170
Fighter Module Dates (SIT/MSC) Y165 (SIT)
SAV Dates (SIT/MSC) Y168 (SIT)
LAV Dates (SIT/MSC) Y165 (SIT)
1st True Carrier Ship CVE
Carrier Dates (SIT/MSC) Y170
Hvy Ftr Intro Dates (SIT/MSC) Y178
Hvy Ftr Module Dates (SIT/MSC) Y178
SAH Dates (SIT/MSC) Y178 (SIT)
LAH Dates (SIT/MSC) Y178 (SIT)
1st HF Carrier Ship CSV/DCS
HF Carrier Ship Dates (SIT/MSC) Y178

NOTE: Unless marked with (SIT) all dates are from G3. No R section changes to the above data.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Chuck, the NF/NHF is the MSC saying when those fighters become available...OL is the OnLine SIT (AO being the AO SIT) [the non-OL SITs used 'varies' for the auxes]

As for the 'First', i started to assume you meant the 'first production carrier' but decided otherwise...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 08:41 pm: Edit

After spending some time on this, I realized that you probably do need a person to be checking against G3 rather than the various products, as G3 is more likely to be accurate. I don't want to cause confusion, so I am going to cease work on this. My apologies.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 03:29 pm: Edit

RuleNumber EmpireName N-F N-HF N-BM N-BH N-HD N-PF N-SCS XSID
R2 Federation 167 176 177 160 179 180 181
R3 Klingon 167 176 173 167 177 179 181
R4 Romulan 165 178 165 182 179 182 168
R5 Kzinti 161 175 165 161 179 181 182
R6 Gorn 167 178 170 169 179 182 182
R7 Tholian 165 178 176 165 179 181 182
R8 Orion 167 179 180 182
R9 Hydran 124 177 135 134 179 180 182
R10 Andromedan 167 175 169 182 176 188
R11 Lyran 167 176 167 167 176 178 182
R12 WYN 164 175 164 176 181 182
R13 ISC 170 178 181 170 180 182 182
R14 LDR 162 176 167 167 176 182
R15 Seltorian 167 176 167 167 179 186
R16 Jindarian 169 178 172 174 181 182 182
R17 Vudar 178 183 181 173 177 183
YR18 Paravian 165 177 180
YR19 Carnivon

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Ken: I have no idea what the above means without notations or expainations.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Chuck, I believe that those of the dates for fighters (N-F), heavy fighters (N-HF), bombers (N-BM), heavy bombers (N-BH), PFs (N-PF), SCSs (N-SCS), and X-tech/SBX (XSID) ... and also the auxiliaries that carry those items...

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 08:42 am: Edit

Chuck,, Steward has it right.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 02:19 pm: Edit

There are a few notes I may have about Ken's list:

*The Romulan entry for the introduction of first-generation X-tech is set at Y168. It should be Y182 instead, according to the data in Module X1 and X1R.

*Speaking of Y182, the Seltorian fighter and PF introductory dates can be no sooner than that year, since they had no access to either kind of attrition unit prior to the Torch expedition's arrival in the Alpha Octant (and the agreement with the Klingons that provided the technology needed to build fighters and PFs, plus the mercenary pilots needed to fly those purchased fighters off of Seltorian carriers). That said, they may still need time to adopt each technology type (and to hire enough mercenary pilots to fly each type of fighter and bomber craft).

*The ISC YIS dates for medium and heavy bombers seem somewhat odd, since they are listed as getting a heavy bomber eleven years before a medium one. I don't have Module J or J2 to double-check the info listed there, however.

*Is that Paravian listing from CL28 or C6? Either way, the problem the Paravians will have is that, in the Alpha Octant, any alternate timeline which sees them remain in play in the modern era would inevitably lead to adjustments to the years of introduction for equivalent technologies by the Gorns, Romulans, and ISC. Even if only one of their alternate histories was to be given the highest priority in F&E terms, that listing would need to be offered alongside alternates for their three neighbours, too. Which means that, even as a simulator opponent, they may not be able to go into a list of "historical" factions.

*The problems noted above would be less of an issue for the Carnivons, since their side of the Alpha Octant is more warlike historically. They may still have two sets of data required, depending on which of the alternate Carnivon histories detailed in Module C6 were to be given precedence for F&E consideration.

*And is the Andromedan info based on the conjectural attrition units in Module C3A? Historically, the only such craft the Andros were known to field is the Mobile Weapons Platform, a rough equivalent to the Interceptor, which as noted has a YIS of Y176. (It's not clear if they had MWPs in service elsewhere at an earleir date and only introduced them to Alpha in Y176, or if they were local innovations in response to conditions in the Milky Way galaxy.)

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 06:26 pm: Edit

I don't want ANY bomber data as ADB has stated that they are subsumed into F&E; that data just adds clutter and creates confusion.

(And I ask that we do not have discussion about bombers in this topic.)

Alternate History GW data for Paravians and Carnivons is okay.

I do not want any Andro data at this time.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Tuesday, January 21, 2014 - 11:11 pm: Edit

Gary - yep re-checked the numbers and the Romulan XSID should be 182.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, January 28, 2014 - 11:19 pm: Edit

Another historical research project�

1. Can anyone tell me how many Kestrel ships and types were sent by the Klingons to the Romulans? Include maulers sent back to the Klingons.

2. How many Kestrels and types were available at the START of the the GW Y168F?

3. How many Kestrels and types were available before ANY fighting just prior to the Romulan invasion of the Federation?

4. How many Kestrels were DOCUMENTED as destroyed during the GW; what and when?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, January 28, 2014 - 11:44 pm: Edit

Quote:
1. Can anyone tell me how many Kestrel ships and types were sent by the Klingons to the Romulans? Include maulers sent back to the Klingons.

Re-posted from the General Discussion thread:

-----

SFB Module R8

(R4.117) TREATY CRUISER (KD4): Conversions of the old D4 cruiser (akin to the Klingon LD4). A dozen ships delivered prior to Y162, were "sold off" to the Great Houses in the run-up to the General War.

(R4.118) TREATY FRIGATE (KF4): Conversions of the old F4 frigate (akin to the Klingon LF4). 20 ships aquired before Y162, but quickly sold off to the Great Houses (seemingly more quickly than the KD4s were).

A number of the above ships are present in (6EW) The Eagle Spreads Its Wings, an F&E scenario published in Captain's Log #36. Note that, as "National Guard" ships (though they only gradually served as such in the Romulan case), they have Y-era (TL 11) warp engines; so they may require notes covering their tactical, operational, and strategic movement limitations if further expanded upon at some later point.

Captain's Log #40

(R4.A22) K5W WAR DESTROYER (K5W): Conversions of the Klingon F5W. "Several" (the precise number is not known, likely fewer than ten) delivered to the Romulans from Y192 (with Federation and Klingon funds and with Gorn and Tholian approval). Might have appeared in Y176 had the means existed for their transfer at that time.

(R4.A23) KCW WAR DESTROYER LEADER (KCW): Conversions of the Romulan K5W. Between one and three ships converted to this design.

(R4.A24) KVW MOBILE CARRIER (KVW): Conversion of the Romulan K5W. One confirmed ship of this design in Y193, records are unclear if more existed.

(R4.A25) KEW ESCORT WAR DESTROYER (KEW): Conversion of the Romulan K5W. At least one ship converted to this design.

(R4.A26) KXW ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY WAR DESTROYER (KXW): Conversion of the Romulan K5W. A single hull of this class converted.

According to the K5W R-section, "a few squadrons of Klingon ships" were delivered as part of the same agreement in Y192 (the goal of which was to help the Romulans resist the Andromedan invasion). The classes and numbers of the non-K5W deliveries have yet to be listed.

-----

It is also noted that, had secure contact between the Klingons and Romulans been in place at each point in time, the K5W, KCW, and KVW could have been built as of Y176; the KEW in Y177; and the KXW in Y183. This may be notable in campaigns where players may be both willing and able to make transfers of the F5W base hull during their own campaigns.

Quote:
2. How many Kestrels and types were available at the START of the the GW Y168F?

3. How many Kestrels and types were available before ANY fighting just prior to the Romulan invasion of the Federation?

Part of the answer to these two questions may depend on the historicity (or otherwise) of (624.0) GATHERING WINDS from ISC War. Since the Romulan Home Fleet is active in that scenario, any of the KRs listed under the Home Fleet OOB may have been involved in that "dispute" with the Inter-Stellar Concordium.

Alternatively, if the ISC consolidation was less overtly disputed by the Romulans historically than is portrayed in that scenario, these activities may have had little to no affect on the Home Fleet's collection of Kestrels as it stood prior to the Day of the Eagle.

Quote:
4. How many Kestrels were DOCUMENTED as destroyed during the GW; what and when?

Also re-posted from the GD thread:

-----

The Betrayal at Oxvind-V story in GURPS Romulans features the D7K Merciless, which is reported as being trapped in Romulan space as of Y182, when it was damaged in an engagement involving the F5K Fire Angel (which was destroyed, though the boom was recovered), the Federation BCF NCC-1762 USS Forrest (which had been sent to negotoate some sort of arrangement with agents from House Rama'ch) and the King Eagle Gloriosus (which was attempting to meet up with the Forrest before being pre-empted by the pair of Klingon ships).

According to the fiction piece (in a section dated to Y183):

Quote:
The Romulans had refused to repair the Merciless, but instead insisted that the Klingons sell it to them. The Klingon Empire, knowing how close the Romulans had come to breaking away, did not want to give them any more reasons to be upset and agreed. Even now the Merciless was undergoing repairs and upgrades while it was converted to Romulan technology. Rumor had it that she was being converted to "X" technology.

The other relevant quote in Module X1 is from the R-section for the K7RX Battlecruiser:

Quote:
(R4.206) K7RX BATTLECRUISER (K7X): Yet another attempt to produce a CX design, the K7X was equal to the FireHawk-X, but the supply of K7 (and modifiable KR) hulls was extremely limited as only three had survived the war and no more could be built. (This is something of a mystery as only three K7Rs are known to have been delivered and at least one was destroyed in combat. One may have been a Klingon D7 that "got lost" during the War, and Retribution may have originally been a KR.) These three were used by the Imperial Faction in the Civil War. Note that this ship, based on the D7B/K7R, is different from many respects from the Klingon DX, which was based on the D7C. The few Romulan KRC/D7C ships apparently did not survive the General War.

Based on the above data, I might suggest that two of the three known K7Xs were based on K7Rs delivered prior to Operation Wedge, and that the third was the ship which the Merciless was converted into near the end of the War.

-----

In order for the above data to comply with (523.115), I request that the original KR Retribution be considered as destroyed at some point during the General War, and that the D7K Merciless be re-named Retribution in that ship's honour when entering Romulan service as a K7X.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 04:34 am: Edit

Gary:

I appreciate the effort, but what I need useful information; not a flood data to sort through to find what I need.

Kestrel Date Smarba # Y168F Y173S War Losses War Loss Dates War Loss Dates
KC9
KRC
K7R
KR
K5
K4
KRT
-D6M

Filling-in the above chart�

1. Can anyone tell me how many Kestrel ships and types were sent by the Klingons to the Romulans? Include maulers sent back to the Klingons.

2. How many Kestrels and types were available at the START of the the GW Y168F?

3. How many Kestrels and types were available before ANY fighting just prior to the Romulan invasion of the Federation?

4. How many Kestrels were DOCUMENTED as destroyed during the GW; what and when?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 02:52 pm: Edit

In that case, I'll see what I can do:

Kestrel SFB reference Date Smarba # Y168F Y173S War Losses War Loss Dates Notes
KD4 R4.117 Y160 12 unknown unknown unknown unknown "National Guard" hull type, transferred to Great Houses prior to General War, exact transfer window unknown.
KF4 R4.118 Y160 20 unknown unknown unknown unknown "National Guard" hull type, transferred to Great Houses prior to General War, exact transfer window unknown (but earlier than that for KD4).
K7R R4.35 Y167 3 3 3 1 unknown "At least" one of the three noted as destroyed during the General War in (R4.206); the surviving hulls were converted into K7Xs.
KRC R4.32 Y165 3 3 3 3 unknown All three hulls "apparently did not survive the General War", according to (R4.206).
K7X R4.206 Y183 2 n/a n/a 0 n/a Advanced technology conversions of two surviving "original" K7Rs. (This line entry does not account for the third known K7R, which is listed below.)
K7X* R4.206 Y183 1 n/a n/a 0 n/a D7K Merciless, a Klingon ship trapped in Romulan space after Operation Wedge; served in its Klingon configuration there until Y182, and (likely) converted into a K7X in or after Y183 (according to Betrayal at Oxvind-V story fiction).
K5W R4.A22 Y192 ~10 n/a n/a n/a n/a Klingon F5Ws transferred through a joint Fed-Klingon arrangement during the Andromedan War; conversions/transfers could have been made as early as Y176.
KCW R4.A23 Y192 1-3 n/a n/a n/a n/a Romulan K5Ws converted to this variant post-transfer; conversions/transfers could have been made as early as Y176.
KVW R4.A24 Y192 1 n/a n/a n/a n/a Romulan K5W converted to this variant post-transfer; conversion/transfer could have been made as early as Y176.
KEW R4.A25 Y192 1 n/a n/a n/a n/a Romulan K5W converted to this variant post-transfer; conversion/transfer could have been made as early as Y177.
KXW R4.A26 Y192 1 n/a n/a n/a n/a Romulan K5W converted to advanced technology post-transfer; conversion/transfer could have been made as early as Y183.

Some of the above information is incomplete, for the reasons I mentioned in my prior post. I listed the Merciless as its own line entry since it is a unique case (and put the asterisk since it's not 100% confirmed to be the third K7X), and each K5W variant has the "could-have-been" YIS dates listed in their respective notes.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Gary, I don't think the K7Rs or KRCs came with the original transfers with the Treaty (Y159-160)...

K5R R4.05 Y160 12? 8 8 ? ? 4 K5 to K5S/K5L
K4R R4.10 Y168 0 12 12 ? ?
KR R4.04 Y160 9 6 6 ? ? 3 KR to KRM

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 09:55 am: Edit

Research Teams/F&E Staff:

Can anyone cite a reference as to which FREE Pegasus ships were produced in the Old Colonies and and the year each type was produced? I seem to recall we put something together at one point but do not recall its disposition.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 10:03 am: Edit

I'll tag on this when I get home from work this afternoon Zulu time.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 10:14 am: Edit

(525.318) See SIT for YIS of the various variants available. Rate of production is 1 per year beginning in Y172.

Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only
Administer Page | Delete Conversation | Close Conversation | Move Conversation

EMPIRE	ISC
Fighter Intro Date	Y170
Fighter Module Dates (SIT/MSC)	Y165 (SIT)
SAV Dates (SIT/MSC)	Y168 (SIT)
LAV Dates (SIT/MSC)	Y165 (SIT)
1st True Carrier Ship	CVE
Carrier Dates (SIT/MSC)	Y170
Hvy Ftr Intro Dates (SIT/MSC)	Y178
Hvy Ftr Module Dates (SIT/MSC)	Y178
SAH Dates (SIT/MSC)	Y178 (SIT)
LAH Dates (SIT/MSC)	Y178 (SIT)
1st HF Carrier Ship	CSV/DCS
HF Carrier Ship Dates (SIT/MSC)	Y178

RuleNumber	EmpireName	N-F	N-HF	N-BM	N-BH	N-HD	N-PF	N-SCS	XSID
R2	Federation	167	176	177	160		179	180	181
R3	Klingon	167	176	173	167		177	179	181
R4	Romulan	165	178	165	182		179	182	168
R5	Kzinti	161	175	165	161		179	181	182
R6	Gorn	167	178	170	169		179	182	182
R7	Tholian	165	178	176	165		179	181	182
R8	Orion				167		179	180	182
R9	Hydran	124	177	135	134		179	180	182
R10	Andromedan	167	175	169	182		176		188
R11	Lyran	167	176	167	167		176	178	182
R12	WYN	164	175		164		176	181	182
R13	ISC	170	178	181	170		180	182	182
R14	LDR	162	176	167	167		176		182
R15	Seltorian	167	176	167	167		179		186
R16	Jindarian	169	178	172	174		181	182	182
R17	Vudar	178	183	181	173		177		183
YR18	Paravian	165	177				180
YR19	Carnivon

Kestrel	Date	Smarba #	Y168F	Y173S	War Losses	War Loss Dates	War Loss Dates
KC9
KRC
K7R
KR
K5
K4
KRT
-D6M

Kestrel	SFB reference	Date	Smarba #	Y168F	Y173S	War Losses	War Loss Dates	Notes
KD4	R4.117	Y160	12	unknown	unknown	unknown	unknown	"National Guard" hull type, transferred to Great Houses prior to General War, exact transfer window unknown.
KF4	R4.118	Y160	20	unknown	unknown	unknown	unknown	"National Guard" hull type, transferred to Great Houses prior to General War, exact transfer window unknown (but earlier than that for KD4).
K7R	R4.35	Y167	3	3	3	1	unknown	"At least" one of the three noted as destroyed during the General War in (R4.206); the surviving hulls were converted into K7Xs.
KRC	R4.32	Y165	3	3	3	3	unknown	All three hulls "apparently did not survive the General War", according to (R4.206).
K7X	R4.206	Y183	2	n/a	n/a	0	n/a	Advanced technology conversions of two surviving "original" K7Rs. (This line entry does not account for the third known K7R, which is listed below.)
K7X*	R4.206	Y183	1	n/a	n/a	0	n/a	D7K Merciless, a Klingon ship trapped in Romulan space after Operation Wedge; served in its Klingon configuration there until Y182, and (likely) converted into a K7X in or after Y183 (according to Betrayal at Oxvind-V story fiction).
K5W	R4.A22	Y192	~10	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	Klingon F5Ws transferred through a joint Fed-Klingon arrangement during the Andromedan War; conversions/transfers could have been made as early as Y176.
KCW	R4.A23	Y192	1-3	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	Romulan K5Ws converted to this variant post-transfer; conversions/transfers could have been made as early as Y176.
KVW	R4.A24	Y192	1	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	Romulan K5W converted to this variant post-transfer; conversion/transfer could have been made as early as Y176.
KEW	R4.A25	Y192	1	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	Romulan K5W converted to this variant post-transfer; conversion/transfer could have been made as early as Y177.
KXW	R4.A26	Y192	1	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	Romulan K5W converted to advanced technology post-transfer; conversion/transfer could have been made as early as Y183.

K5R	R4.05	Y160	12?	8	8	?	?	4 K5 to K5S/K5L
K4R	R4.10	Y168	0	12	12	?	?
KR	R4.04	Y160	9	6	6	?	?	3 KR to KRM