Archive through May 02, 2014
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Archive through May 02, 2014
I can run this, this afternoon when I get home from work.
This is going to be nasty...
Ummm, Klingon LTT+CVA Pod = D5H+VAP?
OB listed in CL4, just for the heck of it:
Tholian:
BATS, 3 Cargo Modules, 1 Power Module, 2 Hanger Module, 6 S-I, 6 S-II, CVA (12 S-1, 12 S-III), DD, PC, WT. Reinforcements are 3 PC over 6 turns.
Klingon:
D5H w/CVA Pod (12 Z-2, MRS, 2 Admin), D5C, F5CVL (6 Z-2, 2 Admin), F5B, E4B, G2C, 2xG2
I am going to redo this, see below.
No pinwheels?
FYI - BTS can only take 3 SIDS (at 4 points each) to cripple…
I am going to redo this, see below.
DOH, ok, well kinda screwed up the SIDS thing, haven't played in a while, but I don't think it'd affect the outcome much in either scenario.
I didn't see a need for pinwheels, but guess they could form. The Klingons don't have a reason to direct on anything (except the never-lives-2-rounds-AWT), and if pinwheels were formed there would be even less reason so.
We could use some form of cool template/logging for writing stuff like this down. I know we have the "line" in the battle excel files which helps, but resolving damage... I guess it just wasn't very clean when I typed it up, but could be better and more consistent 
I also screwed up the BIR thing, 514.58 means the Klingons should be using 1 BIR less than the stated level.
Edit: Let me redo them fixing the SIDS thing, and see if I can make it prettier.
Consider also directing on the the Klingon carrier fighters early as they cannot be replaced by the Swarm.
First, note that the EW is 5. It is always really 1, but I put 5 so there would be the -1 required as per 514.48 -1 Klingon BIR when using the swarm.
Battle #1: Tholians Kill Ships, Klingons save Swarm
Round 1:
Tholian: BTS(CMD) CVA+DDE+PCE AWT(Form) PC PC PC PC PC PC = 68 Compot 5ew, BIR 4, Rolls 3, Variable 4
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) D5H+VAP+E4+E4 F5V+E4A F5 E4 Swarm*12 = 54 Compot 0ew, BIR 4 (Web), Rolls 3
Results:
16 To Tholian: AWT -4, Direct on AWT -9, 1 SIDS for 4, 1 Minus Point
24 To Klingon: Cripple F5V+E4A -18, -6 Fighters (4 Swarm, 2 from the F5V), Swarm at 96.
Round 2:
Tholian: BTS(CMD)(Form)[1 SID] CVA+DDE+PCE PC PC PC PC PC PC PC = 70 Compot 5ew, BIR 4, Rolls 2, Variable 6
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) D5H+VAP+E4+E4 F5V[crip]+E4A[crip] F5 E4 Swarm*12 = 49 Compot 0ew, BIR 4 (Web), Rolls 1
Results:
15 to Tholian: Minus Point -1, Destroy PC -6, Destroy PC -6, 2nd SIDS -4, 2 minus points
26 to Klingon: 12 to direct on E4 Ad-Hoc, 14 falls (swarm takes 12, 2 on the F5V removed), Swarm at 84.
Round 3:
Tholian: BTS(CMD)(Form)[2 SID] CVA+DDE+PCE PC PC PC PC PC PC PC = 70 Compot 5ew, BIR 4, Rolls 3, Variable 6
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) D5H+VAP+E4+Empty F5V[crip]+E4A[crip] F5 E4 Swarm*12 = 47 Compot 0ew, BIR 4 (Web), Rolls 2
Results:
15 to Tholian: Minus Point -2, Destroy PC -6, Destroy PC -6, -1 Fighter from BATS
28 to Klingon: Cripple D5H+VAP+E4 for 22, -6 Fighters in VAP, Swarm at 84
Round 4:
Tholian: BTS(CMD)(Form)[2 SID] CVA+DDE+PCE PC PC PC PC PC = 61 Compot 5ew, 4 BIR, Rolls 3, Variable 2
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) D5H+VAP[crip]+E4[crip]+Empty F5V[crip]+E4A[crip] F5 E4 Swarm*18 = 43 Compot 0ew, BIR 4 (Web), Rolls 4
Results:
13 to Tholian: Destroy PC -6, Destroy PC -6, -1 Fighter from BATS
20 to Klingon: Destroy D5H+E4 for 12, 8 fighters from swarm. Swarm at 76.
Round 5:
Tholian: BTS(CMD)(Form)[2 SID] CVA+DDE+PCE PC PC PC = 52 Compot 5ew, 4 BIR, Rolls 5, Variable 5
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) F5V[crip]+E4A[crip] F5 E4 Swarm*24 = 45 Compot 0ew, 4 BIR (Web), Rolls 3
Results:
15 to Tholian: Destroy PC -6, Destroy PC -6, -3 Fighters from BATS
22 to Klingon: Destroy F5V+E4A for 10, -2 fighters, -12 Swarm fighters. Swarm at 64.
Round 6:
Tholian: BTS(CMD)(Form)[2 SID] CVA+DDE+PCE PC = 41 Compot 5ew, 4 BIR, Rolls 3, Variable 3
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) F5 E4 Swarm*42 = 58 Compot 0ew, 4 BIR (Web), Rolls 2
Results:
16 to Tholian: Cripple PC -4, -12 Fighters
14 to Klingon: Direct to cripple F5 -10, 4 Swarm Fighters. Swarm at 60.
Klingons leave the F5 in the web and retreat, as they only have 2.5 ship equivalents and can no longer use the SWARM.
End results:
Tholians have a BATS with 2 SIDs, a crippled PC, and a CVA+DDE+PCE group. They lost 8 PCs and the AWT.
Klingons left with a D5 and F5, and the Swarm is at 60 strength
Note when the swarm is used it is CMD 10 and there is no command ship.
Ryan and I are working through this also. Should have a report tomorrow, although the six hour difference between us gives us a smaller window.
We are not using a variable BIR, just what we select to take the variability out of the results a little.
There is no need to have more than three Klingon ships on the line, so you should probably use 6 point swarm SEQs instead of E4s and such whenever possible.
So, for example, your first battle line would be higher compot if you had the D5 and FV+E4A as your three ships, and then had 8 SEQ of swarm fighters, for a total compot of 65. You may want to self-kill cripples.
Note that you can stay if you have only three ships, even if some are crippled. The rules says three ships, not three 'ship equivalents).
This time, I made the swarm go first... it worked out kinda better, less dead Klingons, but no swarm at all in the end. However, it ended up with less dead Tholians too, I'm stupid at this game, so my tactics may mirror that ;)
First, note that the EW is 5. It is always really 1, but I put 5 so there would be the -1 required as per 514.48 -1 Klingon BIR when using the swarm.
Battle #1: Tholians save hulls, Klingons swarm them.
Round 1:
Tholian: BTS(CMD) CVA+DDE+PCE AWT(Form) PC PC PC PC PC PC PC = 68 Compot 5ew, BIR 1, Rolls 3, Variable 6
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) F5 E4 Swarm*36 VAPFtrs*6 = 58 Compot 0ew, BIR 4 (Web), Rolls 3
Results:
16 To Tholian: AWT -4, Direct on AWT -9, 1 SIDS for 4, 1 Minus Point
23 To Klingon: Let it fall, -23 Swarm Fighters. Swarm at 77.
Round 2:
Tholian: BTS(CMD)(Form)[1 SID] CVA+DDE+PCE PC PC PC PC PC PC PC = 70 Compot 5ew, BIR 1, Rolls 4, Variable 5
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) F5 E4 Swarm*36 VAPFtrs*6 = 58 Compot 0ew, BIR 4 (Web), Rolls 1
Results:
12 To Tholian: Minus Point -1, Destroy PC -6, Destroy PC -6, +1 Minus Point
23 To Klingon: Let it Fall, -23 Swarm Fighters, Swarm at 54
Round 3:
Tholian: BTS(CMD)(Form)[1 SID] CVA+DDE+PCE PC PC PC PC PC PC PC = 70 Compot 5ew, BIR 1, Rolls 2, Variable 4
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) F5 E4 Swarm*36 VAPFtrs*6 = 58 Compot 0ew, BIR 4 (Web), Rolls 4
Results:
15 to Tholian: Minus Point -1, Destroy PC -6, 1 SID, Cripple PC -4
18 to Klingon: Let it fall, -18 Swarm Fighters, Swarm at 36
Round 4:
Tholian: BTS(CMD)(Form) [2 SID] CVA +DDE +PCE PC PC PC PC PC PC PC [crip] = 68 Compot 5ew, BIR 1, Rolls 3, Variable 1
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) F5 E4 Swarm*36 VAPFtrs*6 = 58 Compot 0ew, BIR 4 (Web), Rolls 4
Results:
12 to Tholian: Cripple PC -4, Cripple PC -4
15 to Klingon: Let it fall, -15 Swarm Fighters, Swarm at 21
Round 5:
Tholian: BTS(CMD)(Form)[2 SID] CVA+DDE+PCE PC PC PC PC PC[crip] PC[crip] PC[crip] = 64 Compot 5ew, BIR 1, Rolls 4, Variable 6
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) F5 E4 Swarm*21 VAPFtrs*6 F5VFtrs*4 = 47 Compot 0ew, BIR 4 (Web), Rolls 3
Results:
13 to Tholian: Cripple PC -4, Cripple PC -4, Cripple PC -4, 1 Fighter from BATS
22 to Klingon: Swarm destroyed -21, 1 fighter loss
Round 6:
Tholian: BTS(CMD)(Form)[2 SID] CVA+DDE+PCE PC PC[crip] PC[crip] PC[crip] PC[crip] PC[crip] PC[crip] = 57 Compot 5ew, BIR 4, Rolls 3, Variable 3
Klingon: D5(CMD)(Form) F5 E4 LTT+VAP +E4[AH] +E4[AH] F5V+E4A = 41 Compot 0ew, BIR 4 (Web), Rolls 4
Results:
13 to Tholian: Cripple PC -4, Cripple PCE -4, -5 Fighters from BATS
20 to Klingon: Direct to Cripple F5V+E4A for 18, 2 fighters lost
At this point the Swarm is gone, the Klingons lost a light carrier group, and the Tholians took some pretty heavy damage but most is repairable.
I think the Swarm is best used, not as a primary thing, but as an additional thing. 3 SE's of swarm is 18 compot, but an F5V+E4A is only 10, and the 3 ship LTT formation is 16 vs 18. Basically it can provide a very high compot, but when you lose them it is forever, so in some ways its best to use them with carriers, but take carrier losses first I think.
I wasn't sure why were fighting this out. I could have went with average rolls and no variable, which may have helped here and there, or as Klingons focused on killing PCs or maybe the CVA group (very possible, though they could just leave and send fighters up once you take out the PCE), but these seemed to make sense
Oh, and 514.51 Minimum ships for combat:
"Crippled ships count as 1/2 of a ship for the numerical totals, but not the normal command ratings."
So 2.5 SEQ aren't enough for the SWARM.
BIR increases by +1 every three rounds.
It is on the round after every fourth round. Per, 304.5. Sorry, Ryan, I had it wrong the first time, went back and checked.
So the attacker can increase the BIR every 4th round, got it.
However, in this case should they be able to? I mean, they are stuck in a web, at a fixed distance, *have* to use BIR 4, and they don't have typical mobility against web based units anymore. Should the Tholian (Defender) instead of the Klingon (Attacker) be allowed to increase the BIR instead? Or just no increase at all?
The rule in (304.5) says involving non-ship units in the battle hex. This does not include the approach round(s). Both slow and non-retreating bases. Nothing in (512.0) overrides this.
This is what I get;
| Flag/CR | Free Scout | Bonus A | Bonus B | Slot 1 | Slot 2 | Slot 3 | Slot 4 | Slot 5 | Slot 6 | Slot 7 | Slot 8 | Slot 9 | Slot 10 |
| Unit | Swarm/10 | | | | D5< | >F5 | >E4 | Swarm-A | Swarm-B | Swarm-C | Swarm-D | Swarm-E | Swarm-F | Swarm-G |
| Unit-AF | | | | | 0 | 5 | 4 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 |
| PT-AF | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| Attrition-AF | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
| TOTAL AF | | | | | | 5 | 4 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 |
| 51 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
LTT:VAP is unescorted and will use two command slots when used.
< Outside Web
> Inside Web
(FEDS CORRECTED)
Pretty sure an LTT+CVA pod is classified as a medium carrier and is under medium carrier escort group limitations if not operating as a single ship (albeit taking two spots) carrier.
Richard is correct. See (515.263) which then refers back to (515.22) for the required number of escorts.
Also note that the LTT+CVA(pod) is treated as an overloaded tug under (517.41).
So can the F5, which is 2 defense factors lower than the D5H+VAP, still tow the overloaded LTT out of the web? (512.32)
Course, anything TRYING to pull it out of the web will probably be directed on anyway, can't see the LTT surviving very often.
Also, though you can put the D5H+VAP+E4A (22.5 EP to replace) on the line, it'll most likely be crippled round 1 with only 22 directed damage (quite easy to achieve), so you only get 1 round of that kinda compot.
Hmmm, looks like the Klingon should just SIDS the BTS for three rounds and then kill it on the fourth...
Can't direct on a base in the web.
Ryan and I ran this. It should be noted we didn’t have the escort for the D5H in the first round but it would have been similar with it there and done like the non-approach.
The approach took down more fighters and dropped the compot of the Tholians before the web based battle began. It was also noted that the Klingon commander was an idiot for sending in this type of force. Too many contradictions with this force.
Approach
D5H (frm), FV+E4A, 42 swarm fighters for 64/0 BIR 4 roll 2
CVA, DDE, PCE, 6xPC 42-54/0 BIR 1 roll 1
K 14 direct on 7 ftr, T lets fall for 9 ftr
R1
42 fighters in the web, out of the web, D5H, D5, F5 roll 3
CVA (5), DDE, PCE, 6xPC AWT (form) BTS (6) 61-67/1 BIR1 roll 5
K 11-4, crip AWT for 6, 1 ftr, T 20 Crip F5 for 15, 5 swarm ftr
R2
42 fighters in the web, out of the web, D5H, D5, E4 roll 2
CVA (4), DDE, PCE, 6xPC (form) BTS (6) 61-67/1 BIR1 roll 3
K 9-4, kill AWT, 2FTR, T 16 swarm ftrs
R3
42 fighters in the web, out of the web, D5H, D5, E4 roll 4
CVA (2), DDE, PCE, 6xPC BTS (6) 56-68/1 BIR1 roll 2
K 12 PW for 18 (-6), T16 swarm ftr
R4
42 fighters in the web, out of the web, D5H, D5, E4 roll 4
CVA (2), DDE, PCE, 3xPC BTS (6) 61-67/1 BIR1 roll 2
K 12 1 SIDS , T Crip E4 for 12 2 swarm ftr
R5
42 fighters in the web, out of the web, D5H, D5, E4 roll 1
CVA (2), , 3xPC BTS (6) 46-55/1 BIR1 roll 4
K 8 1SIDS 4 FTR, T Crip E4 3 swarm FTR
R6
42 fighters in the web, out of the web, D5H, D5, E4 roll 5
CVA (0), , 3xPC BTS (4) 43-52/1 BIR1 roll 2
K 12 3 FTR, T 13
R7
42 fighters in the web, out of the web, D5H, D5, E4 roll 4
CVA (0), , 3xPC BTS (1) 34-40/1 BIR1 roll 3
K 13 PW for -5, T 10 swarm ftr
R8
42 fighters in the web, out of the web, D5H, D5, E4 roll 1
CVA (0), , BTS (1) 28-31/1 BIR1 roll 1
K SIDS, T 9 crip E4 2 swarm ftr
R9
Tholians retreat with CVA(0)
Base dies
NO APPROACH
R1
D5(frm) Not Web, rest in web: 2xE4, 42 Swarm Fighters for 50/0 BIR 4 roll 2
CVA (12), DDE, PCE, AWT(frm), 6xPC(2PW), BATS (6) 68-86/1 BIR 1 roll 4
K 11-4=7 AWT crip 1 ftr, T 20 E4 dead, 8 swarm
R2
D5(frm) Not Web, rest in web: 2xE4, 42 Swarm Fighters for 51/0 BIR 4 roll 3
CVA (11), DDE, PCE, (frm), 6xPC(2PW), BATS (6) 66-84/1 BIR 1 roll 3
K 13-4=9 kill DDE crip , T18 E4 crip 11 ftr
R3
D5(frm) Not Web, rest in web: F5, E4, 42 Swarm Fighters for 50/0 BIR 4 roll 2
CVA (11), , PCE, 6xPC(2PW), BATS (6) 64-81/1 BIR 1 roll 2
K 11 PW (-6), T14 6 swarm
R4
D5(frm), FV+E4 (not in web) 42 Swarm in the web. 42/0 BIR 4 roll 2
CVA (11), , PCE, 3xPC(PW), , BATS (6) 58-72/1 BIR 1 roll 4
K 9-7=2 2ftr, T 17 swarm ftr
R5
D5(frm) No web, D5H+VAP+E4A in the web along with 42 fighters BIR 4 roll 4
CVA (9), , PCE, 3xPC(PW), , BATS (6) 56-70/1 BIR 1 roll 5
K 17 PW (-1), T 20 16 swarm 4 CV ftr
R6
D5(frm) No web, D5H+VAP+E4A in the web along with 42 fighters BIR 4 roll 4
CVA (9), , PCE, , , BATS (6) 50-61/1 BIR 1 roll 5
K 17-1=16 8 FTR, PCE, SIDS, T E4A kill,2 CV ftr D5H crip, 1 swarm ftr
R7
D5(frm) out of web, FV+E4, 41 swarm fighters for 50/0 BIR 4 roll 1
CVA (1), , , , , BATS[1] (6) 40-51/1 BIR 1 roll 1
K 11 9 1 CVA ftr, T10 6 swarm
R8
D5(frm) out of web, FV+E4, E4(c) 35 swarm fighters for 52/0 BIR 4 roll 5
CVA (0), , , , BATS[1] (6) 33-41/1 BIR 1 roll 5
K 17 kill 2xPC, 2 SIDS, 5 FTR, T 12 12 swarm ftr
Reminder on Carrier Tugs and command ratings…
Quote:515.26) TUGS with carrier pods [mission (509.1B)] or SCS pods‡ [mission (509.1Q)] do not require escorts, but can be escorted.
(515.261) Unescorted carrier tugs count as two ships for command rating purposes.
(515.262) Carrier tugs with four or fewer fighter factors are treated as CVLs (515.23).
(515.263) Carrier tugs with five-to-ten fighter factors are treated as CVs (515.22).
(515.264) Carrier tugs with eleven or more fighter factors or with SCS pods are treated as CVAs (515.21).
(515.265) Tugs which have their own fighters but no carrier pods are not considered carriers for this rule.