By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 10:37 pm: Edit

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Also, the Andros can absorb a lot of damage & recover, but they can't really do a lot (no ph-1, very limited TRH). To really hurt a galactic fleet - the DOM has to get into the mix of things.

A B10 will happily stay back and lob drones & long range disrupters...

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 11:37 pm: Edit

(R10.1E1) has another, alternate, Andro OOB. It also says that all of the OOBs (including the forthcoming F&E OOB are "best guesses." So, make of it what you will.

The Andro "Invasion" technically starts in Y184.

	Arrivals						Production
Per Year	DOM	INT	COQ	PYT	COB	MAM	V	C	M	Sat Base
166 - 170		1	0	0	3	0	3	0	0	12
171 - 175		1	1	1	4	0	3	6	1	12
176 - 183		2	2	3	8	0	0	12	3	12
Total:		26	21	29	99	0	30	126	29	216
184 - 187	1	3	5	5	17	2	0	12	6	12
189 - 197	2	8	10	10	40	4	0	18	9	12
198 +	1	4	6	6	15	6	0	18	9	12

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 11:46 pm: Edit

If you double that to per turn the Andros are still gonna be a second rate power. In one major battle the alliance could wreck everything that wasn't a dominator, and still have ships to burn.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 01:45 am: Edit

Having not played operation unity since Andy Sat Ships had TRHs:
I remember them doing pretty well in it. (back before the big Andy fix)

IIC:
Actually I really like the No limit on number of Raiders.
and maybe allowing Raiders to Op move. (Maybe to w/in 6 (12 seems too much) of their raid location)

If everything is garrisoned, they can then consolidate on important targets they want. Aka the Klink HW; ETC...

At least till the SAT bases are killed.

Case the Feds:
Say at the end of ISC pasification have 600 SE (number, 75%, out of my arse)
What do they have 40-50 hard points/prov&planets?

That is ~12 SE per garrison location.
The feds can defend their entire space from raiders, or consolidate to really protect some places.

If they consolidate, they lose $$ to raiders. And mixed with exhaustion, they will never build close to schedule.
And if they spread out SBs & Major planets get hit.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 03:02 am: Edit

The one big problem with the Andros that I see, is that there is really no way for them to "win".

At least in the, "I have crushed your fleet and taken your capital", sense.

If the Andro VCs are just to survive to XYZ date, then it is not really that much fun.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 03:24 am: Edit

why not?

they didn't win historicly, but is was a close run thing. IIRC the andros beat back even the major races to only really controlling a handful of provinces around the capitol, and they did wipe out the LDR, also the statement that ship construction reached an all-time peak during the ISC pacification which just barely allowed the galactics to survive the andros. also remember the echalon of judgement (all X ships) was recalled and just barely arrived in time to save the ISC capitol from falling

if we make the senerio a thing that the andros don't have a chance of winning and taking over the galaxy then it doesn't match history

remember the andro war is as long as the general war (18 years) so the andros need to be a lot more then just an annoyance during that time.

this does bring up the question of what the andros do with the wealth they capture. they can't build the motherships and ships smaller then that are very limited due to the 2 DD equiped ships in a battle rule.

build sat-bases? not likly, most of the RTN was in place before the invasion got into full swing, if they could build a lot of these then the RTN would never be exterminated (eliminated from the core areas where the major fleets are possibly, but not eliminated completely)

build the main base back in the LMC? possibly, but you would expect it to get finished pretty quickly.

build small units (sat ships etc)? possibly, but that would then mean tracking every sat-ship somehow

what else?

also was operation unity the final blow against the andros, or a desperate gamble by races only able to free up a tiny number of ships becouse the rest were fighting tooth and nail to hang on against the rest of the invaders?

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 04:36 am: Edit

I still think we should throw out all previous OBs for the Andros and simply think one up that will work for F&E. SVC AGREES.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 04:53 am: Edit

also, just like the B-10 wasn't finished until afte the general war, but in F&E there are useually several of them around by then, the andros should probably be able to finish the DEV

I do like the idea of delaying reserve and reacting forces (actually I wish such a rule existed in F&E proper, but the balance issues of it would be 'interesting')

By Dave Fowler (Davefowler) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 08:59 am: Edit

I really like RC's ideas on raids. But I have to agree what do the Andro's do with all the money they raid.

What about the Idea I had posted earlier, I didn't really see anyone comment on it.

For each EP raided it subtracts from that races's VP and adds to the Andro's. Or something like it.

1. It forces races to try and stop the raiding.
2. If one particular race starts getting raided heavily and obviously provides the Andro's with tons of VP's the other races are going to consider helping them (pre op unity ideas from commanders etc)
3. Gives the Andro's a reason to raid.

Incorportate the idea of a split the defending forces into 6 groups and roll to see who your fighting, and if you get the empty group (if less than 6 ships are defending the prov) raid for free. Multiple raids... mmm i'm seeing the andro's getting real ugly without having to change many rules..

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 09:25 am: Edit

What to spend the money on?

New Motherships.

If the Andros could start (and nearly complete) a Devestator, what's to stop them from building Dominators and variants?

Ken Burnside's history of the LMC has (IIRC) 3 Desecrator SBs.
Other Andro toys mentioned in E1: Mega-TRs, Super Energy Modules, Mobil Shipyards (these may not be Andro, but I hope they are).

The point is: there is no concrete listing of what arrived and what was built.
All ADB would need to do is release another history "update" which notes that the Galactics were wrong about the number of ships the Andros had.

⁴²

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 09:28 am: Edit

What else to spend EP on?

PDUs. Remember, any Andro mothership can deploy PDUs. It has been noted that the Andros might have problems defending a fixed location - but imagine the problems enemy fleets would have if the Andros have max PDUs on EVERY planet.

⁴²

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 09:40 am: Edit

Money for the andros?

Build more sat ships, I can see already they are gonna need to replace lots of sat ship points every turn. They can also build PDU's, more bases, bigger bases and convert motherships into other designs.

As for the number of ships the Andros had, form the published OB's it looks like the andros force needs to at least double to be worthwhile.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 10:16 am: Edit

I don't think the numbers posted by Jeff above really are that out of line. The only hole I see is DOMs (maybe if 4 DOMs arrive in Y184 to "kick off" the invasion).

Assuming that's the case (I know, a big assumption) the mobile ships will be:
4xDOM, 29xINT, 26xCOQ, 34xPYT

Assuming an occasional raider was lost (say 10%):
4xDOM, 26xINT, 24xCOQ, 31xPYT

Sure, that's nothing compared to the entire cumulative fleets of the Coalition, Alliance, and ISC. However, that's enough to take out (in 1 turn)
2 un/under defended SBs
22 un/under defended BATS (ISC supply network)
everything in LDR space except their "capital"
Raid 31 provinces

all on the first turn of the invasion. Alternatively, imagine what that force could do just against the ISC (with no friends & spread out fleets).

The don't have to take on the entire Galaxy every turn. With those attacks, there's very little chance they'll lose a mothership.
In 2 years, they could fairly realistically squeeze most races back to their core territory (core being whatever is within 6 of the capital).

Assumptions:
- Andros get 4 DOMs the first year (they need the heavy firepower)
- Andros use some sort of Raid attack (or normal combat with no/limited reaction & reserves)
- Andros can attack anywhere (the hidden RTN is spread across the galaxy before the Y184 invasion beginning)
- Andros have some sort of power absorption on at least their motherships (ie, any damage below a threshold is ignored)

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 10:21 am: Edit

IMHO - the Andros don't necessarily need the money (sure, they'll build PDUs or extra sat bases, etc). Their real point is to deny the galactics money.

They will eventually win if their opponents can't afford to repair ships let alone replace them...

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 10:25 am: Edit

I think the Andro player should be forced to disperse his attacks, or have a compelling reason to attack everyone at once. Maybe the Andro fleet should be split into sector commands.

Otherwise, what will happen is the ISC (or whoever) goes down while all the other galactic powers simply are too far away to intervene properly. Rinse and repeat for other races.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 10:38 am: Edit

Isn't that what happened though?

The ISC were the initial target. They were virtually defeated. Then the LDR got trounced, ...

Even so, splitting up the Andros wouldn't really hurt their offensive much. The first few years will be INT vs freighter convoys & BATS anyway

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 11:05 am: Edit

The ISC was only tageted because its BATS were strewn across the alpha sector and relatively weak compared to core areas around capitals. I don't know of any specific Andro targeting of ISC core space.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 11:27 am: Edit

The Andros have to kill a bunch of ISC hulls in early combat, according to the history. Since they can't outlast the ISC, they need a nasty directed damage capability.

They have published ground bases, and the newly understood MWPs will also help defend territory.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 11:34 am: Edit

I like the RobertC's Raid stuff, but it needs to be noted, that these "Raid Reaction Reserves" are just an extended reaction (3 hex) to a normal raid. You can react 2 hexes already to a raid.

Things I thought about Andros and battles:
1) Pursuit battles. They should be able to direct on as many cripples as they want. (Capturing or weapons will take out cripples)

Imagine a group. CX, 3DDX, 3crip CW, 3crip DW. A Dominator chugging up, and vaporing the cripples isn't going to be slowed down so much with all of them trying to run away. This will increase ship kills.

Combat:
1) I think the Andro Motherships should have a set amount of damage that they can "absorb" before taking damage. Since only "direct damage" is considered focusing on one target, and general damage just taking the best shot (which is not going to do much to Andro's that will just absorb it). If the GP player doesn't direct damage something, the Andro's first "absorb" what the motherships can sponge off, then allocate the rest. The Intruder-class ships "absorb" 4, Conquistador-class ships "absorb" 2.

Example.
A medium size battle. GP force 95 COMPOT, do 26 damage. Andro INT+COQ. The GP's could let the damage fall, and the Andro would have to allocate 26-4-2=20 damage, lets say crippling the COQ+10 sat ship points, or 20 sat ship factors. Or the GP forces direct on 10 sat ship factors or the COQ crippling it.

Other things.
What about this proposal for "resupply" of sat ships.

The Andro's have Sat Coins for their ships to keep track of the factors.

When a mothership is dispatched to a hex, put (in hiding) the sat-ships that are "In reserve" through their resupply network (ie. Missionaries/Conquistadors/Infestors) The coins that can be delivered are 15/5/32 (respectively)

These are hidden face down under the mothership on the board (and battleboard) so the GP player doesn't know, until the end of combat.

This way, the Andro shows up with Int+Coq and the GP player reacts with a 4SCS+3DDX+3FFX, and the Andro's put 0 "reserve" coins there, thus faking out the GP player, and just withdrawing.

Other times, the Andro could show up, and boom, 32+15 reserve Sat-Ships are there and overpower what the GP player reacted into the hex.

For example, this "sat reserve" has 12 Missionaries, 12 Conquistadors, and 2 Infestors to start with. Thus giving 12x15, 12x5, 2x32 counters for their attacks.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 12:26 pm: Edit

This is already handled - I think.

Turn 1 of Andro invasion. Andros come in & kill most of the BATS the ISC have strewn about.
Turn 2 of Andro invasion. ISC ships that are unsupplied across the entire Alpha Quadrant fight at 1/2 compot, are slow to move, and are sitting ducks for Andros.

By Todd E Jahnke (Tej) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Perhaps the Andro's ought to be allowed to spend EP to build satship factors that they then deliver to specific bases. If there is Andro combat within six hexes of a base with satship factors, the mothership can refill its factors from factors allocated to bases within that range. If galactic forces attack the base, regardless of any Andro motherships involved, the satship factors would be there to fight. The satships might even have the ability to raid against targets within three hexes with the penalty that the base is then discovered automatically (the satships get followed far enough to reveal where the base is located). This might be a workable way to make Andro bases tougher and account for how many satships are available to motherships involved in attacks.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 07:46 pm: Edit

My impression is that OpU is somewhere between a desperate gamble and a final blow. Historically, the RTN was shattered by the time OpU happened, so the Galactics were ahead, but they seem to also have been running out of ships. On the other hand, "all" the Andros need to do to win OpU is to enter the galaxy on one route...

I think the fleet vulnerabiliy is more related to the sat ships and smaller mother ships than the DOM. Also, the Andros do have a harder time protecting a full set of panels (since they're 180 degrees), although they don't have to do it for as long. Finally once the panels are penetrated, most Andro ships are weaker inside and players tend to compare based on the internal damage scored (ie I did 80 internals), without noticing that galactic ships take internals sooner.

One use for Andro cash might be to buy sat ship factors between battle rounds. Say it costs 0.2 EP per factor (no EW or mauler factors allowed). This is twice the DB cost, but sat ship factors are more powerful.

As an example, in the first round of combat, the Andro player looses 18 sat ship factors. Looking at the hex, he decides to keep on fighting and buys back all 18 factors (for 3.6 EP) and fights the next round. This gives them significant stamina at a cost. And the more they successfully raid, the more they score.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 09:44 pm: Edit

One thing, where does it say that the Andros can't have more than 2 ships in the hex?? While I agree that they can't have more than 2 DD equipped ships in the battleforce, why can't they have other ships in reserve? Or am I misreading the emphasis??