oops, I hadn't looked at the counters, I was jsut remembering 24

so killing it would be 40 to cripple and 20 to kill for 60

so a dom could be 24-10(15)/12-5(7) and be the same to direct on (ignoring the minus points for fighters and whatever happens to the sat-ships)

By Robert Padilla (Zargan) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 12:13 pm: Edit

I'd say just make it cost, as the Andros should have the money to pay it anyway. Perhaps, allow the Galactics to direct on more than one AnIDS (same as above, but less fiery acronym) at a time, thereby forcing the Andros to either leave a ship on the line with little damage left, or rotate in smaller motherships. And yes, I did suggest this for motherships only, if Sat ships could do this to, well that would be sick, and require counters for them. This way, everything should fit on a counter, in my opinion.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 12:33 pm: Edit

if the andros are trading fighters that are free for damage steps that cost money to repair they are definantly on the loosing end of the deal (unless they can trivialy take over a LOT of territory)

I don't see any problem with the galactics being able to direct to put damage in the panels of the ships.

I do think that the sat-ships do need to do the same thing on a smaller scale, remember that the larger sat-ships are the same size as the smaller 'motherships' (I don't remember the classname, but there is one pair of classes where the only difference is that one has a DD and the other doesn't) why should one get this ability and the other not?

I don't see any way to reflect the different sat-ships without having counters.

we have sat ships of different sizes and significantly different capibilities (combat, scout, cargo, mauler) and then there is also the question of how to allocate the different types and make sure you don't have to many of any one type.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 12:43 pm: Edit

I agree that Sat-Ships would be nice, but SVC has said, he'd like to go with "Sat Factors" but maybe we can change his mind.

But regarding counters. I think it will have to be decided to go one of 2 directions:

1) with either Sat-Base counters, as the RTN is on the board. 60-80 counters. Sat-Ship factors for combat.
2) with Sat-Ship counters for combat, and the RTN as being "abstracted" into something that is researched and found.

Hoping that the Andro's will have 2 sheets of counters for themselves to use, total, to keep the price of the product down.

Of course those number are straight out of my a__, so that's just a guess.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Mamba is the large sat ship. Python is the same ship with a DD (almost). A Python is a DD equipped ship, but isn't a mothership (can't carry sat ships. It's effectively a special case sat ship.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 12:47 pm: Edit

(thump) That's the sound of my Tomb of SSD's (TM) hitting the table.

Looking up the COQ and Python/Mamba. They all have 6 PAs front, 4PAs back.

So there is a case of the Larger Sat Ships, absorbing as much initial damage, as the COQ.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 12:51 pm: Edit

And
The COQ/Python/Mamba all have 6 batteries as well (important for the ability to shuffle power around).

However, the COQ has the huge advantage of being able to shunt damage into the Energy Module or Cobra in it's hangar bay.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 12:59 pm: Edit

I'd love to use sat-factors if we can figure out how to do them. they would work just fine for combat sat-ships (does it really matter much if the sat ships are 9xviper, 6xcobra, or 4xmamba?? they can probably just be treated as X compot and be close enough), but when you consider the special abilities of the other sat-ships thing change.

how many EW points do you have?, how much damage do the galactics need to do to eliminate that scout?

repeat the same questions about maulers

repeat the same questions about cargo ships (probably only seen on raids or galactic attacks on fixed defenses)

for the RTN, a large part of things is after it's discovered fighting through it to take it out. without counters how would you indicate what portion of the network is down?

even with all this I could see the andros fitting on a single countersheet, (several copies of it in the package)

72 counters total, so we could have

9 real RTN counters,
9 fake RTN counters,
18 motherships, etc (2-3 Dom, 4-6 INT, etc)
36 sat-ships (1 cargo of each size (3), 2 maulers of each size (6), 3 scouts of each size (9), 6 combat of each size (18))

figure 8 sheets like this (4 double sheets) and you have 144 counters for the RTN, 288 sat ships and 144 motherships/independant ships/bases

the andros just don't have that much variety in their ships

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 01:07 pm: Edit

that's right, I forgot the 3 different sizes of energy modules


so we have {\table}type,effect
combat,compot
scout,EW
mauler,compot/mauler effect
energy module, additional damage abcorbion (voluntary only doesn't help when being directed on)
cargo, increased money stolen when raiding??{table}
with three sizes of each

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 01:11 pm: Edit

36 sat-ships (1 cargo of each size (3), 2 maulers of each size (6), 3 scouts of each size (9), 6 combat of each size (18))

That doesn't really cover it. To really do it right, you need
combat - lot's of these
mauler/scout about 1/3 of the number of combat
cargo
troop (maybe 1/6 of combat)
Pseudo sat ships (of various varieties)
MWPs
EMs

18 motherships, etc (2-3 Dom, 4-6 INT, etc)

Again, probaby not enough. Assuming just DOM, INT, & COQ based hulls - the following are all variants

DOM, DMN (carrier version), DMX (assault version)
INT, INF, IMP
COQ, MIS, RAV

So, to have only 1 counter sheet, you'd need 9 different types of mother ships (of 18 total). That doesn't leave enough for the base types, but gives too many of the variants (probably). I'd like to have 1 DMN (total), but 8 of them would be too much...

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 01:11 pm: Edit

Actually if an energy module is present it should have a chance of saving the ship when directed damage is applied.
Say a 50/50 shot at absorbing 6 damage points.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 01:14 pm: Edit

Edward has a point. Directed damage in F&E isn't the same (necessarily) as single impulse kills in SFB.

I suspect it's far more common to be damage spread over a turn or more (ships fire as they get into range, turn to bring new weapons online, drones impact on the now crippled & defenseless ship to finish it off)

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 01:20 pm: Edit

OK, counter mix shouldn't really be worried about right now. Since I brought it up, I was just trying to point out that there will only (that I see) be 2 choices of what we have in AndroWar.

RTN network counters or Sat-Ship counters not both, because of counter limitations.

And I'd like to point out, that the ISC use 24 BATS through ALL of the neutral zones to go across the board. The Andro's would probably need about 50+ Sat-Bases (and remember Base Stations and Battle Stations and possibly Sector Bases) to cover as much as they would want to cover (and remember there is no indication why the Andro's couldn't just take over everyone's off-map areas or individual off-map provinces.)

That could easily put the Andro Base counters close to 100.

By Javier D Benvenuti (Javierb) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 01:44 pm: Edit

I personally prefer Sat ship counters over factors, because if a unit can't carry them (due to carrying capacity) they can't be used. If they lose too many of a type that shortage can also be demonstrated in a strategic sense. P\F's and Fighters are fairly generic enough to represent as factors. SAT ships are so different in capability, that it makes sense to represent them individually.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Ok, an update

type	effect
combat	compot
scout	EW
mauler	compot/mauler effect
energy module	additional damage abcorbion (voluntary only doesn't help when being directed on)
cargo	increased money stolen when raiding??
troop	troopship (G)
PSS	chance to save a sat-ship from DD can be used to absorb X points of damage
MWP	compot

anything else we need?

one factor that I don't think we can do anything with is the fact that in SFB the hangers are supposed tob e configured for one configuration of sat-ships and need to be reconfigured to hold other sizes/quantities. without a paper record per mothership I don't see any way to do this.

I agree that to represent the RTN it will probably easily take 100 counters

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Andro bases should be kept track of on paper it minimizes the counters needed and besides nobody else has counters for all their bases.

I must admit I am a convert to the sat ship factors, it is very simple. Although I do agree it has a problem in that the Andro's can't be ran out of scouts or maulers.

I think each sat ship bay should be worth 6 sat ship points on the mothership (ie a cobra) This would yield slightly more sat ship factors on the motherships then currently. A Dom would have 36 I think it has 32, an Int would have 18.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 02:01 pm: Edit

D'oh - forgot the other things that Motherships can carry (not really used in combat necessarily, but may be taking up space)
PDUs
Sat Base
Core Module

Those won't be used that much, so could probably be pen & papered.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Edward, if we can come up with a way to represent the different types of sat ships as arbatrary factors I would love to just use factors.

there are two problems

1. how can you run the andros out of factors of a given type.

2. how do you limit what the andros can deploy? (if they have the max possible number of maulers in every mothership in the east they should be short of maulers in the west)

one idea that was floated earlier was to have a paper record of how many sat-ships of each type you have and you only pull out counters for the ones deployed in the battle hex you are resolving. the problem there is identifying how many sat-ships you have left to deploy vs how many youhave total, along with the problem that if not all mothership are in combat those that are will end up with the best possible ships, and those that aren't in combat will just be full of cargo sat-ships

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 02:14 pm: Edit

can someone remind me what happens when damage hits a hanger with somthing in it?

I know that in a SB hanger it is scored on the ship inside it as normal damage.

but fighters/shuttles are completely destroyed by a single point of damage hitting them if they are in a shuttle bay (double sized shuttles take 2 points to destroy)

I just don't remember what happens with sat-ships

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Hitting a hanger, transfers the damage to the PA on the Sat Ship. BFD

Regarding Cargo Sat Ships. They ALL have DisDevs. So they can be just "assumed" to be collecting by themselves, and doing the non-combat transfer of loot gotten by the Motherships.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 02:30 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

1. how can you run the andros out of factors of a given type.

---

---

Quote:

2. how do you limit what the andros can deploy? (if they have the max possible number of maulers in every mothership in the east they should be short of maulers in the west)

---

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 02:50 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Allow 1/3 of all sat ships in a given force at the start of a battle to be specialty ships. The Andro records what they are at the start of battle (secretly). So, a DOM+INT would get 3 specialty hulls (say, 1 scout, 1 mauler, 1 troop ship). Round fraction down.

---

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Scott, I didn't realize all of the tiny sat-ships have DD (including the viper sized ones??)

Tony, it should probably be mre like 1/2 then 1/3. A Dom with 1 mauler, 1 scout and 1 EM should not be unusual.

however how do you deal with the different sizes of sat-ships? there are far fewer mamba-class maulers then there are cobra-class maulers

also if you do it by hulls what about the combination of 3 vipers, 1 cobra, and 2 mambas in a Dom, making the 2 manbas and the cobra be specialty ships really isn't the same thing as making the 3 vipers be specialty ships

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 02:56 pm: Edit

should a scout sat-ship be allowed to back off to the 'free scout' slot where it's harder to direct on? if the galactics are directing on the scout sat-ship at 3:1 every round the andros just crank up the scout production slightly and take far less damage on other ships

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 03:13 pm: Edit

If we go with factors, it would probably have to be abstracted as "all medium sat ships".

The viper was out of production from before the "invasion" period began - so we're limited (really) to Cobra/Mambas already...