So Ive done a ship count for the Alliance. First number is the total number of hulls, second number is how many of them are carriers (of any type).

Hydran 118 - 5

Gorn 99 - 2

Kzinti 145 - 22

Federation 301 - 18

Total 663 - 47

So the Coalition have a massive ship advantage. But when you factor in Fighters, the Alliance probably have another 100 ships worth.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 01, 2018 - 07:44 am: Edit

Ok, so the Coalition are currently ahead, like, 250 ships. As noted, I suspect that the Alliance have at least twice the fighters (if not more) of the Coalition, lowering the SEQ disparity a little. The Alliance is currently outproducing the Coalition by, probably, 10-15 hulls per turn, and I think it is still safe to say that the Coalition lose hulls at a higher rate than the Alliance.

So maybe the Alliance will get SEQ advantage at some point before the end of the game.

I'll try and do a Coalition fighter count soon.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 01, 2018 - 06:29 pm: Edit

So as of AT12, the Coalition have +/-282 fighter factors on the map, not counting planets/bases, AuxCVs, or FCRs; just active fighters on warships. As the Coalition don't currently have any oversized squadrons, that comes out to about 47 SEQ worth of fighters on ships.

Added to the about 900 ships they have, that is about 950 SEQ (I like round numbers) of ships in play currently.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 01:53 am: Edit

If you click the Racial Summary button it will give you an estimate on total SE.

It has the Coalition at 960 and Alliance at 750 which seems to be pretty close to our own estimates.

So I'd say in future we can use this to give SE updates.

I havent found a way to see just ships though. Perhaps if James swings by he can let us know.

Op Moves have begun. The Hydrans have sent large forces to each of 0416 and 0519. We shall see how that pans out.

The Kzinti are hitting pretty much everything in Kzinti space and still have about 150 SE to move, but probably dont have enough to hit the heavily fortified 1407.

The Feds have just started moving and at the moment are just cleaning Province botherers. Time will tell whether they have anything interesting they can hit.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 07:40 am: Edit

Huh. Handy. I had no idea that was a thing we could do. I'll check that out!

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 04:16 pm: Edit

I knew it was a thing, I just had no idea if it was accurate or not. Now it looks like its pretty good

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 02, 2018 - 04:27 pm: Edit

AT12

Moves are well underway. The Hydrans are boldly attacking planet 0416 and 0519; the Coalition reacted ships to fight over these planets (more to 0416 than 0519).

In Kzinti space, the Kzinti are attacking everything they can reach. Nothing has gone to planet/SB 1407 yet. Remains to be seen if anything will.

The Feds have moved to attack as many province raiders as they can so far, currently hitting 5 hexes of small groups of ships. No significant, large fleet movements yet.

Gorns haven't moved yet. Perhaps they are sitting this one out?

Moves continue.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 03, 2018 - 09:39 am: Edit

AT12

The Kzinti have sent a lot of ships towards the Coalition stronghold in 1407, but the Coalition have reacted out and pinned them in open space. The Kzinti have about 20 ships left to move, but they are mostly the new builds, and may end up being saved for reserves this turn.

The Fed have started moving significant fleets, having sent a fleet to hit Coalition held planet 2610 and a forward deployed Coalition fleet in 3111, and a few piles of Romulan province raiders.

The Gorn have started moving, but as of press time, they have only rearranged ships inside of Gorn space, shoring up defenses of their forward SBs.

Moves continue.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Saturday, February 03, 2018 - 05:43 pm: Edit

T12A Op Moves are done. The Alliance are attacking a total of 27 different hexes. Mostly to get rid of Province raiders, but a Romulan BATS is under attack, as well as the NZ planet 3415.

Not too shabby given the Gorn arent doing anything this turn.

I was tempted to go after a couple of Romulan BATS but decided not to get Greedy.

Exhaustion is coming soon, so the Feds will then get to have a lot of FUN.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, February 04, 2018 - 08:42 am: Edit

AT12

Combat is starting!

In Hydran space, the Hydrans are attacking province raiders in 0118 and 0315, and are attacking captured planets 0416 and 0519. The Coalition sent reserves to 0416 and 0315; the Hydrans will probably take back 0519, but probably will not take back 0416.

In Kzinti space, the Kzinti are attacking province raiders/planet garrisons in 0802, 1001, 1105, 1203, 1504, 1506, 1703; there are 100+ ships pinned in 1405 open space. The Coalition sent reserves to 1105 and 1506, likely saving both.

On the Fed/Klingon front, the Feds are attacking province raiders/garrisons in 2003, 2008, 2206, 2209, 2211, 2511, 2610. The Coalition sent reserves to 2206 and planet 2610 (which they will probably still give up).

On the Fed/Romulan front, Feds are attacking a forward fleet in 3111, raiders in 3311, 3313, 3809; attacking a Klingon force in 3514, and Romulan held planet 3415 (which will likely be captured by the Feds).

On the Gorn front, no Gorns crossed the Romulan border.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 08:19 am: Edit

AT12

Combat is underway. In Hydran space, the Hydrans took back planet 0519, were pushed back from planet 0416, killed an E4 near the Old Colonies, and lost an HN. The currently have about 30 ships sitting on planet 0519 and no current supply issues.

In Kzinti space, the Kzinti recaptured planets 1202, 1504, 1802, and mugged a lot of province raiders, mostly seeing a bunch of little Coalition ships get crippled in exchange for some dead fighters (there were a lot of "My 4 ships beat up your 4 ships, and my 4 ships are bigger and have fighters" fights). The Kzinti were repulsed from planet 1506 (Coalition still holds it), planet 1105 (same), and there was a giant, 120+ ship battle in open space in hex 1406 that resulted in both sides losing a small escort.

On the Fed/Klingon front, so far, the Klingons have seen a bunch of F5/E4s crippled in similar "4 big ships beat up 4 small ships" fights against province raiders.

Even with all the cripples, so far, the Alliance have lost 14 hulls and the Coalition have lost 13 (most of them small). The Kzinti and Hydrans were tenacious in the fights they lost, fighting 3 or 4 rounds, trading small ships for somewhat bigger ones each round.

Fights continue.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 03:20 pm: Edit

I really would like a rule that 50+ ships must fight 2 rounds and 100+ ships must fight 3.

250 ships met at 1406 and each lost a frigate.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 03:22 pm: Edit

Such a rule would probably make sense but you would have to finesse it to be based on how many ships are on each side. Forcing a side with less than a full battleline facing 50 ships to fight two rounds would be kind of cruel. Then again if you set numbers they can and will be gamed.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 03:47 pm: Edit

If a minimum 20SE on each side and 50+, if a minimum 40SE on each side and 100+, etc.

Its not hard. But the defenders of the pinning rules are the most vocal and aggressive defenders of any rules in the game.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Yeah, I would allow the side with the fixed defenses to bow out early and the side without to bow out if the approach battle is denied.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 04:24 pm: Edit

Its more the open space ones. 200 ships manage to block 200 ships with only a single fight where frigates are swapped.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 06:34 pm: Edit

Hey! I think I lost a DWE!

But yeah, the "Two titanic fleets meet in open space! And each side loses an FF! And then one side retreats!" is kind of silly.

If there are fixed defenses, this isn't an issue. The side with fixed defenses either wants to fight to protect them or maximize damage with them, and the attacker wants to kill them. So it works out.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Perhaps our next game can include a house rule on open space combat.

Of course, the Feds have to complete their invasion of Romulan space before we worry about such things.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 07:34 pm: Edit

I mean, honestly, I don't know that it is really necessary. Usually, you can avoid these sorts of things in the first place.

In this instance, yeah, it was a silly "I have 120 ships and you have 120 ships, and we are pinned in open space, and we fight one round, and then we each lose a small ship and then I retreat", but given that you probably *knew* that was going to happen (i.e. you knew you didn't have enough ships to get into that hex), why send the ships? Like, if you had just spread out ships and sent big lines to go kill province raiders (which also seems silly, but at least is productive :-) instead, you would have come out ahead.

Like, giant open space pin fights generally should be:

A) Something you need to do for a larger purpose (i.e. you are pinning all those ships in open space so that you can so something else important).

or

B) Not something that happens, as you know it is going to happen, so use the ships somewhere else instead.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 09:25 pm: Edit

AT12

Combat is over!

In Hydran space, they took back planet 0519, and have supply to their ships on the map.

In Kzinti space, they took back planets 1202, 1504, 1802, and crippled a bunch of province raiders.

On the Fed/Klingon front, the Feds took back planet 2610, beat up a bunch of province raiders, and pushed some Klingons back.

On the Fed/Romulan front, the Feds killed a few little Romulans, captured planet 3415 (it remains to be seen if they intend to hold on to it), and pushed a couple forward fleets back.

Nothing super dramatic happened, but even then, 36 ships got blown up this turn:

Ships Killed:
-ZIN: 3CM, FKE, EFF, 3FF
-HYD: LN, 3AH, HN
-FED: NCL, DE, FFE, FFS, FF

-LYR: CC, 3DWE, 2DWS, FF
-KLI: D7, AD5, 3F5E, F5, 2E4
-ROM: SNB, 2K4

The Alliance were tenacious in the fights where they were going to end up retreating (i.e. the Coalition were invested in holding something, and were clearly going to win, but the Alliance fought 3-4 rounds anyway, swapping smaller hulls and fighters for generally bigger hulls). The Coalition also crippled a bunch more ships than the Alliance (probably about 20 various Coalition cripples this turn, compared to about 5 Alliance cripples).

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 09:28 pm: Edit

'Why send the ships' you ask?

For you to die !

Overall it was a pretty good Turn. Would have been more fun had you stayed and fought in a few of the bigger fights.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 07, 2018 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Heh, yeah, well, none of them were ones that were worth fighting over :-)

Like, the fights where you gained the most, I think, where the ones where I wanted to keep something (planets 0416 and 1506), and was going to win the fight (I had more ships and more compot), but you stuck around and fought for 3 or 4 rounds, forcing me to kill a lot of your fighters and generally lose bigger ships than you. Those are the fights to push...

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 01:56 am: Edit

So about half of what was built got destroyed (on straight hull numbers) - which sounds reasonable?

When the Gorn enter - those numbers will trickle up a bit and when Exhaustion starts, it should help avoid counter build up.

On big pinning battles - probably no easy or simple solution.

Would you need to recount ships or ship equivalents each round (do you still have 100 ships + ?)

The ideal solution (which would kill the game as we know it) would be to allow pinning battles to take place in movement - you burn up movement to push past pinning forces - but the larger side will always be able to get to the target then.

So pinning battles would be reduced and the side with more ships massively gains.

So pinning battles will remain - and we just have to accept it

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 02:32 am: Edit

You can create more battle hexes sometimes, if you move several fleets and come at the big stack from different directions (if it is trying to pin you out from somewhere).

I've used this for good affect to improve attrition force usage as Jason can attest, I think. :p

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 08:10 am: Edit

>>So about half of what was built got destroyed (on straight hull numbers) - which sounds reasonable? >>

Sure? I don't know what you are trying to get at here.

>>On big pinning battles - probably no easy or simple solution. >>

I think the simple solution is the existing solution, which I previously articulated--don't get caught in big, pointless pin battles. You can always count ships, so you know if you are going to get pinned in a big mass. So if that is going to happen, don't go there. Or do, and just send enough ships to put up a good battle line and fight a round, swap damage, and leave. Rather than just having 120 ships get pinned and fight a round, send them somewhere else. As Richard points out, if you *are* going to get pinned anyway, get pinned in 3 different hexes rather than one, and fight 3 rounds that way.

There really only should be giant 100+ ship per side pinning fights if they accomplish something else (i.e. if pinning those 100 ships in open space lets you get an important force somewhere else, like killing a woefully under defended Starbase :-); otherwise, those ships should be doing something more productive.