Archive through February 13, 2018
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
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And Now For Something Completely Different - Part Deux:
Archive through February 13, 2018
CT13
y174 FA T13
Lyran Econ:
Command Points: 2
Exploration: 118+11=129 (+5, 130 next)
Treasury: 62.575 (CT12)
On Map (56): 56
Off Map (24): 34
Capital (35): 35
Captured: 13.2
Salvage: 7.875 (AT12)
Total: 208.65
Construction T13:
-10 BC
-8 CA
-8 CWS
-15 3CW
-12 3DW
-7.5 3FF (0404, 0608, 0411)
-15 3FF (overbuilds)
Construction Total: 75.5
Conversions:
-5 CA>STT (0408)
-3 FF>DWE (0404)
-3 FF>DWE (0608)
-3 FF>DWE (0411)
-5 DD>NCA (1407, minor)
Conversion Total: 19
Repairs:
Repair Total:
Expeditionary Fleet:
Expeditionary Total:
Total Spent: 94.5
Treasury: 114.15
FFF Left: 0
Salvage: 0
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Klingon Econ:
Command Points: 6
Exploration: 62+8=70 (+3, 80 next)
B10: 34+3=37
Treasury: 41.625 (CT12)
On Map (93): 92
Off Map (0): 6
Capital (49): 49
Captured: 34.8
Salvage: 8.75 (AT12)
Total: 232.175
Construction T13:
-9 D7C
-10+12 D7V
-10 D6M
-8 D5S
-6 AD5
-35 7D5
-12 3F5L
-8 2F5E
-3 F5
-7.5 3E4 (sub F5)
-2.5 E4
-15 3E4 (overbuild)
-5 B10 #11
-10 MB
-8 PDU (1407 self production)
Construction Total: 161
Activations:
-2 2D6
Activation Total: 2
Conversions:
-5 D6>D6M (1411)
-4 D6>D6S (1411)
-3 3F5>F5E (0617)
Conversion Total: 12
Repairs:
-4 (2D5, F5 2916)
-3 (2D5 2214)
-1.5 (D5 1811)
Repair Total: 8.5
Total Spent: 183.5
Treasury: 48.675
DBB:
FFF Left: 0
Salvage:
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Romulan Econ:
Command Points: 4
Spare Parts: 4-1=3
Exploration: 0+5 (+0, 20 next)
Treasury: 48.7 (CT12)
On Map (79): 79
Off Map (0): 0
Capitals (34): 34
Captured: 11.2
Salvage: 2
Total: 174.9
Construction T13:
-17 CON
-10 FHF
-7 SPF
-8 SPC
-10 2SP
-7.5 3SEH (sub SK)
-2.5 SEH
-10 FAL
-2.5 SN
-15 3SEH (overbuild)
Construction Total: 89.5
Activations:
-1 (VUL, WE)
Activation Total: 1
Conversions:
-3 WE>KE (4015)
-4 VUL activation (4613)
Conversion Total: 7
Repairs:
-1.5 WE (4015)
-1 K5 (4410)
Repair Total: 2.5
Total Spent: 100
Treasury: 74.9
FFF Left: 0
The Romulans finished building a SB in 2916, and took over control of planet 2214 from the Klingons. The Romulans also declared war on the Gorn. We are assuming this means the North Fleet is released (see: General Discussion :-)
CT13
Movement is under way. In Hydran space, the Hydrans at 0519 have been pinned, the Hydrans keeping the Old Colonies connected have been piled on by Lyrans.
In Kzinti space, the Kzinti at SB 1704 have been pinned, planet 1504 has been attacked en masse (currently protected by 4 ships, two moderate reserves can go there), and a lot of Kzinti space has been captured.
On the Fed/Klingon front, a bunch of Klingons attacked planet 2610 again, and a bunch of provinces have been captured.
On the Romulan/Fed front, about 140 ships have attacked about 50 ships at SB 3611; a mob of janky ships are between the two reserves at 3008 and SB 3611, blocking the reserves from reinforcing the SB. They are also capturing a bunch of provinces.
Nothing has happened on the Gorn front yet. Both sides are staring balefully across the NZ.
Moves continue.
>>So about half of what was built got destroyed (on straight hull numbers) - which sounds reasonable? >>
Sure? I don't know what you are trying to get at here.
I suppose I was covering 2 issues...
1) Stack of Death...if you have played World in Flames with the add ons....the hexes end up with stacks counters....which will only fall over 4 or 5 times a turn 
(Fleet Counters help, but there never is enough)
2) Where is that other DWS counter?
No matter how many counters you have..... there will never be enough!
If your using Cyberboard/Vassal - these 'fun' issues alas don't occur - so you are just left with the benefits of a lower number of counters - so moves takes less time and if you are counting to check pinning etc, there are less counters to count.
Equally the stated 'history' is probably more accurate - as some games never seem to have ships die....as Star Trek history (from the movies or series say) does show lots of ships did died.
Yeah, ships die a lot. The trick is:
A) Realize that a lot of the time, fights are just "we each shoot once and someone retreats", so rather than crippling a couple interior escorts and killing fighters, blow something up.
B) Those big dumb pin fights ("My 140 ships pin your 140 ships! I fight a round and retreat!") are silly. So don't get in those. Spread out. Kill more ships.
This whole game is on Vassal, so no counter/fleet/stack issues.
Peter, do you have a relatively accurate count of how many ships have died in this game since the beginning?
Empires of the Dead through half of the coalition combats of the coalition turn 5 has the total up to 201 not including Aux, Bases, PDUs, and those that make the Depot or are captured.
I have records of dead ships for every turn so far posted here; at some point I'll do a death census, as I like that sort of thing :-)
Death Census!
Ok, through the end of T12, the following numbers of ships have been killed:
-LYR: 64
-KLI: 125
-ROM: 9
Total Coalition Dead: 198
-ZIN: 61
-HYD: 42
-FED: 43
Total Alliance Dead: 146
This does not count Auxes of any type, fixed defenses, or fighters. Just ship hulls.
So on a per turn basis, the Coalition have been losing 16.5 hulls per turn; the Alliance have been losing 12.2 hulls per turn. So we are still staying ahead of destruction with production.
AT12 was the bloodiest turn of the game so far, in terms of ship death, with 36 total hulls being destroyed; the second bloodiest was CT4 with 29 dead hulls.
No Gorns have been blown up yet, as no Gorns have seen combat yet.
In terms of production, the Coalition put 59 new hulls on the map CT13. We'll see what the Alliance build this turn and compare.
Thanks Peter. For your comparison here is the breakout between Coalition and Alliance for the Empires of the Dead.
Alliance: 52
Coalition: 149
Over how many turns?
If you look up a bit to his previous post, it looks like 5 turns? Which seems *really* bloody for 5 turns, but then, it might not be a regular GW scenario (?)
Roughly 4.25 turns and it is not a regular GW game.
CT13
Movement is done:
In Hydran space, just two fights--a big mob of Coalition vs a handful of ships at the entrance to the off map zone, and a non winning force vs the Hydrans at planet 0519 and a couple reserves.
In Kzinti space, there is a big mob of ships attacking 4 Kzinti at planet 1504, and a pinning force at SB 1704 that drew in a couple of off map reserves.
On the Fed/Klingon front, the Klingons are attacking planet 2509 (no PDUs, but undevastated), which has a similar sized 60 ships fleet, and a couple reserves and planet 2610, which has a similar sized 50 ship fleet and a couple reserves. There is also two dozen Klingons pinned by two dozen Feds in hex 2709, the closest the Klingons have come to Earth so far (they were going towards planet 2708, but got pinned on the way).
On the Fed/Romulan front, there are a ton of Coalition ships at SB 3611, and no other fights.
The Gorns remain unattacked. Maybe they'll cross the border this turn?
Not a ton of fights, but the attack on Fed SB 3611 promises to be exciting and bloody, I'm sure.
My game's ship casualties tend to mostly run the same as the last time I played, where at the end of Turn 11 it was:
Coalition: 244 dead, 641.5 EP spent on repairs
Alliance: 89 dead (counting 24 built PDU on capitals as 1 ship each) and 157 EP spent on repairs.
Worth the cost taking out both the Kzinti and Hydran capitals though. As the casualty rates after T11 are mostly equal, with builds generally remaining in the coalition favour. Especially if you are using minor shipyards.
I've never played a 'you can always sub an FF' though. That would be interesting to use.
Tim Linden.
Always having FF really helps the Alliance because they keep their ship count up when they cant afford DN or even CA.
CT13
Combat is over!
In Hydran space, the Coalition sealed off the Old Colonies, and traded a couple small hulls at planet 0519 before retreating. The Hydrans still hold 0519, but it is cut off from the main supply grid.
In Kzinti space, the Coalition took back planet 1504 and a bunch of provinces, killing a couple small Kzinti ships.
On the Fed/Klingon front, the Klingons devastated planet 2509, but then fled, and failed to gain traction at planet 2610 or near planet 2708.
On the Fed/Romulan front, the Romulans took down SB 3611 over 9 rounds of combat (and then one more round vs the crippled, SIDed, undefended SB where we didn't even roll dice as it was autokilled and could only kill fighters in return). Over 9 rounds, the dice were nuts, with the Feds rolling high, although the Romulans avoided 3 or 4 shock rolls. The Romulans mauled ships every round, while the Feds killed big ships each round as well. The Romulans had a -1 EW advantage each round of combat.
Carnage at 3611:
Romulans Killed: KRC, KRM, KRS, 3FAL, K5S
Romulans Crippled: FAL, 7SP, 2K5L
Klingons Killed: TGB+DD, D6S
Klingons Crippled: 3D5
Feds Killed: CC, CA, 3DE, 3FFE, FF, (SAV)
Feds Crippled: CC, 2NCL, 2DE, CL, 11FF
Dice were kind of nuts:
ROM: 2, 4, 6, 1, 5, 5, 4, 5, 6=4.22
FED: 5, 5, 3, 1, 5, 6, 5, 6, 5=4.55
Tim wrote:
>>I've never played a 'you can always sub an FF' though. That would be interesting to use. >>
It's not actually *that* significantly different than using most of the advanced rules; you can usually sub down an FF for any ship twice per turn, and there are plenty of sub down to an FF with no limit situations already (i.e. like, the Klingons can already sub an E4 for pretty much anything; the Lyrans can sub down FFs for a lot of things, etc.); the "you can always sub an FF" just avoids having to keep track, and helps the Alliance more than the Coalition, generally speaking.
Well that was a fun battle over 3611. The SB is lost but the Coalition lost a *lot* of big ships taking it out, while the Feds really only lost a couple of nice ships.
The Feds have far more cripples too, though the bulk of them are very cheap repairs.
I am guessing both sides rolling high helped the Coalition more - as the battle then took less rounds (and so EW was less relevant)?
Also, I assume the Feds didn't have enough there to save the SB?
"The Romulans finished building a SB in 2916, and took over control of planet 2214 from the Klingons. The Romulans also declared war on the Gorn. We are assuming this means the North Fleet is released (see: General Discussion :-) "
Ignoring the part about North Fleet (as I think that is wrong - there must be a reason the rule was worded that way) - don't the Romulans actually have to enter the Neutral Zone between the Gorns and Romulans to Declare war (or accept interment)?
I don't think 'Declaring War and then ignoring them' is an intention of the rules in general?
But I can't find the rule which confirms this...... (or doesn't!)
We have no idea what the actual rule is but if Peter wants to invade the Gorn he can, with whatever ships he sees fit.
The Gorn too are free to invade. But like growing their fleet a lot each turn.
As for SB 3611 I had a couple of CVAs, a CVB and CVS plus CC, CA, NCL and a lot of FF.
Peter killed off Escorts and killed big ships when on the line and I crippled all the FF and a few NCL too.
He had way more ships than me including a bunch of CA Maulers and a couple of heavy scouts. I killed all of those. He also had a bunch of CW Maulers and a bunch of smaller scouts.
I traded a lot of my little ships for his big ships and burned through my fighters. I could have stayed another round or 2 but would have lost big ships to his big ships and that is not a war I win.
In terms of cost he lost twice the EP as me and is down 5 Maulers and a couple of big Scouts so my Capitals are safe a little longer.
And exhaustion is coming.
There is no rule anywhere saying that you must enter a neutral zone hex to declare war.
There really isn't any 'declare war' rule, so far as I have found.
F&E has no political system - that is covered by scenario and campaign rules. The war/limited/peace stuff is economic (and the 'cost' is progress towards exhaustion). So yes the Roms and Gorn can glare at each other while at war, and do nothing else, legally, and just slowly march into exhaustion.
I'd say its a quick march for the Romulans. The Gorn will be very happy to sit at full production for a long time to come.
>>I am guessing both sides rolling high helped the Coalition more - as the battle then took less rounds (and so EW was less relevant)? >>
I dunno that it mattered that much; the Feds rolled higher than the Romulans, which mostly resulted in killed 4 point scouts and a few extra crippled SPs. The Romulans did fine, damage wise, but mostly mauled light escorts (so they didn't really lose any damage in the exchange) and the rest got absorbed by SIDs and crippled FFs.
>>Also, I assume the Feds didn't have enough there to save the SB?>>
The Feds had about 50 ships, of which a big chunk were 2CVA, CVB, CVS, a bunch of escorts, all of which were pushed off the line by having escorts killed, and then a lot of FFs. I put a stack of 30 cruddy ships between the SB and two reserve fleets that could reach it, which saved a lot of effort. The Coalition had, like, 120 some odd ships at the SB. So yeah, the SB wasn't getting saved.
>>I don't think 'Declaring War and then ignoring them' is an intention of the rules in general? >>
It's all very unclear. I'm yet to get a rules answer on what actually releases the North Fleet; the Romulans can totally attack the Gorns on T13 with *something*? But the rules are all vague.
In any case, the Gorn didn't cross the border on T12, the Romulans declared their intention to cross the border on T13, and then kinda forgot to do so. So we are probably all ok?