Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through December 17, 2018	25		12/21 04:25pm
	Archive through February 28, 2019	25		03/02 04:12pm
	Archive through March 15, 2019	25		03/16 08:06am
	Archive through April 02, 2019	25		04/02 06:56pm
	Archive through June 05, 2019	25		06/16 09:46pm
	Archive through July 12, 2019	25		07/16 12:01am

Yeah, I'm seeing now that it was a poor choice. I haven't been SIDSing it, but at least I'll get the Romulan MB before retreating. I've actually only played the Alliance before, so being on the offensive is new to me.

I probably could have taken it down had I been taking out SIDS from the start, but it's too late now.

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Friday, July 12, 2019 - 11:15 pm: Edit

Argh, if I had played the battle a little smarter I could have taken it. If I had just 3 fighters left and had crippled my CVBs, I think I would have succeeded. I'm going to fight a few more rounds and see if I get lucky - given even dice I don't think I can take it, but a 1-6 split could give me the edge I need.

The big thing is that I have better ships than Richard - and he has a bunch of unescorted carriers. That kind of low density really helps me.

This next turn I'm going to be losing all of Fed space except for a little sliver toward the Gorn (I could probably keep SB 3611 if Richard doesn't try too hard to take it, and SB 3604 should be fine). If I don't take out the base now, I'm not going to get a chance to do so.

Even if I do take it, I think the Klingons will be hitting Earth on C12.

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 11:17 pm: Edit

The battle over 3013 is over, with the Federation retreating after 9 rounds of BIR>=7 combat!

Final casualties:

Federation losses: TG+BP CVL FF
Klingon losses: F5L (self-killed)
Romulan losses: MB

Federation cripples: CVA CC CVS 6CA CVL 12NCL 9DD 11CL ECL 2NEC 7DE 3SC 2FFS 2FFE 4FF
Klingon cripples: D7C 4D7 4D6 11D5 D6D 3AD5 3F5E 2F5S 3F5 4SIDS
Romulan cripples: K7R 2SP 4WE SK SE

Final analysis:
Overall, that was a very bad fight for me. Had I followed my own advice and killed the TGA+BP in the first round (or two, if he put it up crippled), I would have saved myself around 40 damage over the fight, nearly an entire round's worth of damage. Odds are I would have stuck around and killed the starbase had I done that. Dice were essentially even.

There are two important positive things here:
1) The Federation have essentially prevented any kind of attack against SB 3008, as that's where the cripples will retrograde to and my FRDs are in 2908. I figured letting them retreat would be super bad for the Coalition, so I can station my reserves there and not worry about them being pinned.
2) The Klingons in 3013 are out of supply because they didn't retreat and I took 2715. They're not getting repaired now unless the Romulans pay, and they probably won't be ready to fight again for 3 or 4 turns. Even going toward Romulan space isn't good enough, because nothing is in 3 hexes.

I doubt that offsets the huge amount I'm going to have to pay for my repairs. I should have either played for the long battle by trying to reduce his compot or just retreated after a round or two so that he'd be out of supply.

I'm sticking a lot of frigates on 3611, because that's most of what I've got left uncrippled. Maybe that will be a good choice?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 11:56 pm: Edit

I can use Orion smuggluing to supply ships on the starbase and it is a limited supply grid.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 12:01 am: Edit

killing the battle tug would have added an entire battle round to the siege, you can't forget.

it feels like trading damage with the coalition on so close to an equal basis almost has to be a losing proposition. if you'd bagged the sb, so his ships would take significantly longer to get repaired than yours... maybe?

but without knowing anything about the strategic situation other than the turn number, it seems like the coalition almost have to get a starbase's weregild (even if it had gone down) in savings on CT11 as they assault newly under-defended federation targets.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 17, 2019 - 10:14 pm: Edit

A10 is complete.

The Hydrans have retreated offmap and have no reserves.

In the Kzinti theatre, they have a modest force on 1802 but are otherwise offmap, with a couple good strength reserves there.

In the Federation theatre, the Feds have a strong force at the 6th Fleet Starbase, the vast majority of their other ships clustered around the core of the Federation. A lot of Coalition ships are in range of deeper targets, some being in range of Earth itself if they can get past Fed forces.

The Klingons still have their SB in 3013, but it's cut off from the main Klingon supply grid and has four SIDs on it. It's got around 65 Klingon ships there (around half or more crippled). It remains to be seen what the Coalition will do about this. There are a good number of Romulans in range of Earth too, but they'll have to make it past Fed forces if they want to try to attack the Capital hex of the Federation.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 17, 2019 - 10:14 pm: Edit

*Lyran C11 Eco.

*Survey roll: . 8 New total = 99 + 8 = 107 ( 5 provinces explored).
*Starting treasury: 29.3 - 10 ) = 19.3.
*Income: 115 (base) +10 (explored) + 1.6 (8NZ) + 3 (prov 0801 901 903 ) 1 cap min(1401 one minor) = 130.6
*New Treasury: 149.9 EP.
*Used two CP on C10 (0 remain).

*Production (0408):
10 BC
10 STT
17 2CW CVL
13 2DW DWS
7.5 3FF (one in 0404).
10 MB
5 Command Points (2 new, 2 total)
-------------------
72.5

*Overbuilds:
30 3CW

*Repairs:
18 (1013) 3C8 BC CC D5V F5E 2F5S
6 (2109) TGA D7V 2F5E
2 (1910) D6D
------------------


Conversions:
6 0408 CL->BC
-------------------
6


Homeless ships paid for:
Klingon 9 (on C4):

*Total spent: 134.5
*Treasury: 15.4.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 12:50 pm: Edit

*Survey roll: . New total = 56 + 8 = 64.
*Starting treasury: 14.1 - 10.8EP(C9 DBB) - 11.8 (A9 DBB) = -8.7
*Income: 142, 6FFF +6 (exploration) + 11 Hydran( 1MAJ 9 prov) +
21 Kzinti( 5 prov 5MAJ 6MIN) + 9 Fed (9 prov)
*3 (2214 Bezwel Index 1910 Sherman's Planet, 1506 Zursk)
+ 9.6 (48NZ hexes) = 201.6
*Other grids:
*3013: 3(prov) + 1,8 (9 nz hexes) = 4.8 (spent on supplying ships C11)
*2505: 1(prov) = 1

*New Treasury: 192.9
5 B10#1 (28 + new roll 4 = 32 ).
5 B10#2 (7 + new roll 1 = 8 ).
9 D7C
10 D7V
10 D6M(sub)
48 6D5 3AD5
22 6F5 (one in 1509) F5E.
7.5 3E4 (2 sub for 2F5) (one in 2318, one in 1716).
5 CP (+2, -2 A10, , now have 2 CP).
2 Activate 2D6.
-------------------
123.5

Supplies: 3013 4.8 RP, Orion smuggling 16.4 EP (8.2 actual). supplies D7 3211 and all Klingons but 2f5 in 3013.
------------------
16.4

Repairs:
6 (0716) 4CW
4.5 (1411) 3D5
5.5 (1509) 3D5 F5S
2 (1214) D7
2 (1013) TGC
2 (1507) CC
10 (1807-2014) 5D6 (one each BATS).
6 (2109) D6 F5 2AD5
6 (1910) 4D5
--------------------
44

Conversions:
-------------------
6 (1411) D6->D6M

Total spent: 189.0
Treasury: 3.

*Lyran and Klingon supply tugs: 2109 TGA TGP

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Note that 21.2 EPs were spent on supply, without repairing any of the ships at 3013. Still probably a bad trade for me, but much better than it could have been.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 05:51 pm: Edit

You might not feel that way when C11 is over. :p

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 09:01 pm: Edit

*C10 Romulan Eco:
*No exploration of on map provinces and planets.
*No Survey.

*Income (base C10): 97.

*Production:
10 NH
8 FH
29 SPF SP SPH SPB(6FFF)
13.5 3SKE
10 FAL
2.5 SN
10 FRD
----------------------
83

Conversions:
6 (4514) WE->FAL
3 (4614) SP->SPC
3 (4015) WE->KE
2 (4812) 2K5->2K5S
------------------------
14 Total

97 Subtotal
================
Remaining treasury: 0EP.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Ah yes, you have to send out the survey ships. I forgot about that with the Romulans. No instant dice, even though the Klingons get it.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, July 19, 2019 - 09:17 am: Edit

The Klingons do not get Survey Rolls on Turn 1. They have to send their survey ships to the Lyran Off Map area on turn 1. So they start rolling on Turn 2.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Friday, July 19, 2019 - 10:11 am: Edit

Right but they magically appear there.

The Romulans have to send their ships across the map and grap the NZ hexes, dont they?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 19, 2019 - 10:33 am: Edit

In the full rulels, the Klingons DO have to move their survey ships to their offmap (starting in 1411).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, July 21, 2019 - 01:02 pm: Edit

Operational movement is proceding.

In the Hydran theare, the Coaliton consolidate their control of Hydran space, the Klingons claiming all the planets except for a minor in 0617 as well as all of the Hydran nz hexes (there's a singe Hydran uncaptured planet at 0519 that will be captured by the Klingons this turn). The Hydrans have no reserves and arre entirely offmap, so.

In the Kzinti theatre, not much is happening. The Kzinti have planet 1802 and some nz hexes (and two provinces) which the Coalition don't seem to want to deal with at this time. The Coalition does pull forces from 1701 back to 1401 (leaving a DD behind to keep 1802 a partial grid). The Kzinti could react an FF to stop it (and create a battle hex in 1601). This reaction
opportunity hasn't been resolved yet.

In the Western Fed theatre, the Klingons have moved a fleet to attack a Fed force sitting on (a defenseless minor planet at 2509 (Novosibirsk) this fight wont be alrge. The Feds may react here.

In the Romulan Fed theatre, the Romulans send a WH and SKB group to go attack a BATs on the Gorn Fed border, there are 3 FFs here and a Fed F15 sqiadron based on that BATs. No other Feds are in range (nor any reserve), so the Romulans are certainly going to destroy that BATs if they want to (after more forces show up later, which they will).

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, July 21, 2019 - 01:58 pm: Edit

per 502.952, the Fed special F-15 squadrons can only be deployed on planets, not bases. The F-14 special squadrons also can't be deployed on BATS, only SB or STB (502.951).

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, July 21, 2019 - 02:05 pm: Edit

F14s but yes, he'll have to move them then. Thanks.

I didn't mention, but everything more or less Coalitionb wise in Hydran space went to 0118 if it wasn't garrisoning something. Hydrans will be off map for a while, hopefully.

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 07:57 pm: Edit

I've conceded the game to Richard - he's probably taking 2 of the capital SBs this turn, and neither of us think there's any way he'll fail to take Earth by the end of C12. With that in mind, we agreed to end it here.

Good game!

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 08:19 pm: Edit

Essentially what happened is I managed to got about 22 ships into the Earth hex with only 3 FRD and 2TG in the hex. Not enough for me to capture Earth, but enough to make a good mess of things there. End of turn was goingt to see a lot of Coalition ships within six of Earth (more than the Feds had for defense) and the Feds weren't going to be able to cut supply off of any of them befire a C12 attack happened. The Klingons did have a strategic move point within 6 of Earth, and so did the Romulans.


I think you played pretty well, early loss not withstanding. Early alliance is tough in basic 2010 and your tactics generally were sound and you made good use of aggressive strategy.

You got pushed off map in a bad way with the Hydrans, but I think that sort of thing has happened to most of us at least once. It's easy to forget that you MUST win a fight next to your offmap if you want to retrograde back to your capital afterwards. I know it's happened to me at least once.


I hoope to play another game with you soon.

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 09:02 pm: Edit

Some more thoughts on the game:

You didn't give me many opportunities. The few times I was able to exploit an advantage, it wasn't because you left things open, it was because you couldn't defend everywhere at once.

I probably could have afforded to be a little more aggressive as the Kzinti. Also, I expected the Feds to bring a lot more firepower than they did, and was kind of underwhelmed. :P Is it even possible to keep Orion?

I look forward to a rematch - Richard has proposed we play again swapped, with a few more rules (I'll let him lay those out, perhaps in a new thread).

F&E is definitely a game I look forward to playing for many years to come!

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 09:16 pm: Edit

Keeping Orion is extremely hard to do. I'm not sure I can do it in the Empires of the Dead with Bill. Again it is a case of I can't defend everything at the same time.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 26, 2019 - 09:57 pm: Edit

Me and Mr. Calhoon got Orion back from Ted Fay a couple of times. Mike Calhoon was a VERY wily player and helped sharpen our games against Ted.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, July 27, 2019 - 03:35 pm: Edit

This game has concluded. It can be moved to the inactive game area.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, July 27, 2019 - 09:39 pm: Edit

After the ceasefire, the Klingons and Federation determined it was all a big misunderstanding and all powers agree to retain their peacetime borders. The Kzintis,d Lyrans, and Hydrans end up penalized for starting the conflict and end up paying reparations (the Lyrans only a token amount).

Everyone learns to get along except the Kzintis and Lyrans who do manage to learn to stay on their own side of their boders and just not talk to each other, the ISC don;t invade and fleets are mostly disbanded as a golden age of trade and understanding begins.

Until the Andromedans invade, quickly wiping out the defenses of the mostly defenseless empires and enslaving them all, except for the Frallis who were never seen (hooray!) again.

Eventually the Xorkaelians liberate the galaxy from the Amndromedans, kick them out of the LMG and then enslave the galaxy (and all the satellite galaxies) making all the various populations long for the good old days of the Andromedan conquerors.

And everyone lived unhapilly ever after.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 04:56 am: Edit

Two things

1) Other than allowing the Hydran Expedition through, the Coalition can make several major errors and those errors although annoying, may not become significant until the mid game (losing a FRD part for example)

The Alliance can't afford to make those mistakes - as they often will become terminal, such as Retreating large numbers of ships off map (when they could retrograde and help defend on map bases) of allocating a large amount of resources to an attack - and then failing (the SB assault).

In other words it's a very steep learning curve though if you play the Alliance - and errors which we all have made

2) The Kzinti and Hydrans have to bleed to death (if required) to stop a Turn 7 invasion of the Federation - as although huge economically, the Federation very very much starts as a paper bag in the terms of defence.

Therefore, every turn they have to trade fighters and cripples for more Coalition cripples, to try to delay that eventual attack - the difference between a turn 7 invasion and turn 8 invasion is huge - not in new builds but better deployment for the Feds.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 31, 2019 - 10:40 am: Edit

I request that discussion of more general strategy (as this does not seem to be related to this game in particular) be done in the general discussion thread so as not clutter up this thread.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, September 26, 2021 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Deletion warning, resume or archive by 31 Dec 2021.