Also, unless the history of the Andros will be re-written dramatically, they don't produce ships - they receive replacements from Andromeda.

Those replacements have been enroute for 200 years. They don't get any variants and have a specific reinforcement schedule. The only way to get variants is at their SB - and it has limited capacity (maybe 3-4 conversions).

They won't have all DOMs + MIS for this reason.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 12:32 am: Edit

You realize there is a minimu of several hours (SFB time) between each die roll (F&E time) and probably on average more like a day. So PA panels would be fully recovered instantly on an F&E scale.

You do understand that don't you?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 04:01 am: Edit

Edward, yes we do and that fact would lead us to giving the andros damage absorbion of some sort where they just ignore X points of damage per round.

however playing devils advocate here, what are the long term limits of these repairs, do the ships ever need supplies to finish them, etc. these are things that don't show up on the scale of SSFB that could be additional limits in F&E

unfortunantly the result of that would be the same result as allowing the galactics to swap carrier escorts between battle rounds, you would never see anything other then the best carriers (motherships) on the line all the others would become large FCRs

by adding additional limits on PA panel repair that don't appear in the timescale of SFB we can provide a way for the galactics to force a good mothership off the line and get a shot at the other ones.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 04:22 am: Edit

David K, thanks, I am trying to get a feel for not how different is SFB combat then F&E combat, but how different is SFB alpha quadrent combat than SFB andro combat. if the two are fairly close then the F&E results should also be close, but if there is a significant difference between how a fleet of 2xDom and 12xcobra would operate vs a fleet of 2xBB and 12xDW then we do need to represent it somehow

one huge difference between SFB and F&E is that in SFB the attacker does most of the decision making about what ship gets hit (the defender chooses his formation, but that seldom makes a big difference) while in F&E the defender makes most of the decisions

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 09:58 am: Edit

I've got a suggestion for Andro damage absorption. All andro ships have a PA panel absorption point in the sequence of play (comes after damage before the DD phase). I will attempt to explain this.

Lets use a small battle force of Dominator with a 20 attack, 16 defense, 16 pa panel factor strength and a 10 crippled along with 3 satellite ships of strength 10 attack, 8 defense and 8 pa panel strength and 5 crippled factor. The Galactic players cause say 45 damage. The Andro player may then (prior to Directed damage) distribute some or all of this damage around his pa panels. Let's say the andro player distributes 8 damage to 1 satellite ships, 4 to another and 0 to his 3rd satellite. This leaves 45 - 12 for 33 damage to the Galactic player. The Galactice player then decides to direct on the satellite ship number 1 for 8 * 2 to cripple and 5 * 2 to kill. Or he may decide to DD the second satellite ship for 4 * 2 (to fill the pa panels) + 8 * 2 to cripple and 5 * 2 to kill. Or he may decide to DD the third satellite ship for 8 * 2 (pa panels) + 8 * 2 to cripple + 5 * 2 to kill.

Essentially all andro ships have an attack, smaller defense + pa panel strength. The andro player may distribute damage onto his pa panels at will (up to the limit caused by the galactic player). The galactic player may then dd an andro at 2xpa panel, + 2xdefense factor. This will only require adding a small step in the SOP called pa panel phase where the andro distributes damage onto his pa's as he see's fit. At the end of the battle round all pa panels are cleared.

Did this make any sense or did I just ramble on? =)

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:09 am: Edit

Darn Jimi, that was hard to follow, because you compressed it all together.

How about this:
Dominator: 20-16 (PA16)/10
3*Sat Ships: 10-8 (PA8)/5

45 damage to be done.
8 damage, 1 Sat Ship's PAs.
4 damage, 1 Sat Ship's PAs.
0 damage, 1 Sat Ship's PAs.

33 damage remaining

Now to Direct Damage, choices:
Sat #1) 0*2(PA) 8*2(crip)+5*2(dest)=26 damage
Sat #2) 4*2+8*2+5*2=34 damage
Sat #3) 8*2+8*2+5*2=42 daamge
Dom 16*2(PA)+16*2(crip)+10*2(dest)=84 damage

I think the opinion is that this is definitely do-able, as a system (damage absorption) it's just what 'level' each ship gets.

i.e.: Dom, 16 or 8 or 4, Int, 12 or 6 or 3, etc.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:16 am: Edit

David,
SFB Galactic & SFB Andro combats are drastically different. Many SFBers won't play with (or against) Andros because of this.
A) It takes a very different mindset to be an Andro ship
B) It takes a very different mindset to fight an Andro ship
C) They are "broken" at the top & bottom of the scale.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:21 am: Edit

LOL, thanks Scott for fixing up my rambling mess... makes a lot more sense the way the way you explained it then I did.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:22 am: Edit

For damage absorption, it needs to be limited in some way. If you allow every Andro ship to absorb it's PA value each turn, but not take any other losses, you aren't reflecting SFB at all (or your reflecting an incompetent GP player).

What if damage absorption was limited to the greater of:
1/2 of incoming damage
the capacity of one Andro ship.

So, (assuming Andros absorption is based on their forward PA panels in SFB):
DOM led force takes 13 damage. All is absorbed by DOM, no effect
DOM led force takes 20 damage. DOM can absorb 13, takes 7 more to some ship.
DOM led force takes 30 damage. Andro can spread 15 damage across PA panels, must take 15 more.

Should this take place before or after Directed Damage?
If before, you're limiting the Galactics ability to decide targets (instead of 30 damage to direct with, they only have 15 after absorption).
If after, I think it will more closely resemble an SFB match. Little ships go pop, big ships may be untouched.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:28 am: Edit

Doesn't work

Suppose the Andros have 2DOms and 8 pyt. Under your proposal, they can take 32 damage on DOM PA panels and another 64 on python PA panels.

The Galactics will need to do 98 damage before they even scratch the Andros....

A development of something I tried earlier.

I suggested that the Andros can only absorb PA damage on ships whose PA panel rating are greater than a quarter of the *orignal* damage done by the Galactics (this can be modified - maybe a fifth is better)

So, if a DOM has 13 PA panel rating (1 for each panel on the front), and INT has 8, and their 9 satships have 6 PA panels:-

Each DOM can absorb 13 on PAs if the Galactics did less than 52 damage
Each INT can absorb 8 on PAs if the Galactics did less than 32 damage
Each satship can absorb 6 on PAs if the Galactics did less than 24 damage.

This absorbtion occurs *after* directed damage. (where 2*(PA+def+crip def) kills an andro ship)

If the galactic powers do more than this damage threshold, an Andro ship still absorbs damage on its PA panels, but it must subseqeuntly be crippled and destroyed if the GP has enough damage remaining, *before* any other Andro ship can take damage.

Once all damage is allocated, any Andro ship that took any PA damage is crippled on a die roll of 6. This is to represent three things.

1) Andros can get significant PA degradation over a long (SFB) battle. This can effectively cripple them.
2) Andros are very prone to bad luck. A failed self-Disdev roll (which is 1 in 6 in SFB IIRC) can land them in BIG trouble (those drones will hit after all....)
3) Small galactic fleets which output less than 24 damage still have a chance of damaging an Andro fleet.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:37 am: Edit

What about a general damage reduction.....

General: Anything under 10 is ignored if at least 1 Andro SC3/2 ship is present.

1st round of combat, 50% is "absorbed"
2nd round of combat, 25% is "absorbed"
3rd round of combat, 15% is "absorbed"
4+ round of combat, 10% is "absorbed"

So, this means that if the Andro sticks around, they will take much more damage, but in a quick 'hit and fade' opperation, they take minimal losses.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:49 am: Edit

DAS,
That doesn't work at the bottom end of the scale. CA+3xDW has no chance of hurting a DOM (let alone crippling it). However, in your proposal, it has 1/6 chance each round of crippling it.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:52 am: Edit

I think a concensous has to be made.

We go with:

1) A PA-rating of 1 for each SFB front PA panel, and the GP races get NO COMPOT reduction that was suggested earlier
2) A PA-rating of 1/2 for each SFB front PA panel, and the GP races DO get a COMPOT reduction that was suggested earlier.
a) Fed, Klingon, Lyran, Hydran: 75% of printed factors
b) Kzinti, Romulans, Gorn, ISC: 50% of printed factors.

I'm prefectly OK, with DavidS's suggestion of a 'shock' of 6 for an Andro ship that takes PA damage, but no other, to give it a little 'risk' to doing it.

Tony, he said Sat-Ships have PA panels, so they would take the damage first, and possibly get crippled on a lucky 6.

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 12:15 pm: Edit

what if the andros can take that damage, distribute it as it will, but that damage reduces the uncripple defence factor of the unit (if the unit was crippled obvioulsy it would affect that defence factor). basically, fill your panels and you are vulnrable.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 12:15 pm: Edit

I personally don't like adjusting the compot of Galactic Fleets. Seems messy esp if it is different for different races. All kinds of mixed fleet issues.

I think the damage absorption PA thing is a valid way to go. But, I don't know that any ship that absorbes is crippled on a 6 is good. It seems too frequent. I think The big ships would get crippled too frequently. When was the last time you saw a B10 crippled (in F&E)?

Unless the andys make 1 Roll for each round that a ship uses its PAs. And they could take the Crip on any ship that absorbed. In this case I'd advocate cripping on a 5-6. I'd even be ok with the andys have to cripple 1 ship that used its PAs each round in addition to normal allocated cripples.
This may be to far, but it might temper the huge damage absorption the Andys would get with this method.
And still give them something to spend their money on. Fixing crippled Sat Ships.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 12:24 pm: Edit

The thing with a lucky "6", the Andro player doesn't HAVE to take it on a Dominator. If he's smart, he'll take it on the Intruder with it, and "Oops, the Intruder got crippled"

This is not the case of, "Oh, 1 point to the B10, I'll cripple it, and get 19 minus points."

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 12:26 pm: Edit

I think adjusting compots for the Galactics would be the most accurate, but it's also the messiest. There is no current indication on a counter for what ships are plasma armed. While the generalization "All Gorn, Romulan, and ISC" is close, it's not quite correct.

I think option 1 is better.

However, I still think the shock thing is wrong. A DOM would have no reason to release it's SAT ships in the case mentioned. What about a raiding Exploiter (no sat ships)? What about a Mothership that can beat the enemy without sat ships? What about the odd circumstance where the sat ships reacted off & the mothership somehow got in a battle?

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 01:31 pm: Edit

darn... checking my post i see that the numbers i typed in for the pa ammounts did not appear, will retry using parantheses.

Using my proposal from above where Andros have PA's. The andros can use their PA ability post damage but prior to the DD phase up to the amount within the 's. If the Andro does not take damage willingly in this phase the galactic player may do 2x the number within the . If the galactic does not DD then the andro player takes damage normally but taking it on the number within the first at a 1x1 ratio.

COQ: 9-5 (2) / 6-3 (1)
EXP: 10-5 (2) / 6-3 1)
MIS: 4-5 (2) / 2-3 (1)2EW
RAV: 7-5 (2) / 5-3 (1)
INT: 12-8 (6) /8-4 (3)
IMP: 14-10 (6) /9-5 (3)
INF: 8-6 (6) /6-4 (3)4EW
INS: 10-8 (6) / 6-4 (3)
DOM: 20-12 (8) /10-6 (4)
DMX: 24-16 (8) /12-8 (4)
DMN: 16-12 (8) /8-6 (4)6EW

here are some suggested combat, defense, pa amount and crippled factors.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 01:43 pm: Edit

OK, so lets work this out (with Jimi's numbers for example)

We have DOM+INT chug into a hex. And they are fighting a 100 COMPOT GP line.

GP: 100 COMPOT
Andros: 20(Dom)+32(Dom Sat)+12(Int)+15(Int Sat)= 79

GP do 30 damage. Andro's do 24 damage. 30%

The DOM absorbs 12, the Intruder 8. Leaving 10 to be resolved on Sat-Ships. Crippling 2 Cobras for 10 (If Cobra's are 5 each).

The GP taking 24 damage, and crippling 3 DWs and 6ftrs dead.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 02:22 pm: Edit

I think this can be done much more simply with adjustments to the Andro's compot.

Make a Dominator a 24-19/12-17
Its got the same total defense as the 24/12 version but its easier to direct on the first time so you can potentially drive it off the line.

What you want to accomplish can be done simpler in other ways.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Well nuts, disregard my last post, I misread Jimi's numbers.

Bad eyesight I guess.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 03:42 pm: Edit

Rather than have a fixed COMPOT adjustment for the Galatics, why don't allow the Andro's to have a Dis Div table, similiar to the Romulan Cloak?

A couple differences would be:
a) any bonus modifier(s) can be added to the Andro's BIR or subtracted from the Galatics BIR at the Andro's choice (i.e. Offensive OR Defensive use of the DisDev).
b) Any force made up of 50%+ of Gorn, Romulan, ISC, have an automatic +1 adjustment (to reflect the Andro's ability to avoid Plasma). This could be +2 if the effect needs to be more dramatic.
c) Any failure is added to the Galactic's BIR (AND the Plasma Modifier is added if facing Plasma Races, since Andro's who accidently displace to close to Plasma go BOOM!)

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 03:53 pm: Edit

One thing to think about,

if we put PA absorbtion on the Counters, where will we put SatShip Hanger Capacity, since those items seem to be taking the same place (i.e. Fighter Factors)?

What if rather than indicating PA absorbtion with the "( )", we just indicate that the first X% (say 25%) of the Mothership Defense is PA and can be absorbed each round.

2 DOM (20-20) could absorb 10 damage per round. This would require the Galactics to do 50 damage in 1 round to direct and cripple a mother ship. Otherwise, they're forced to attack Satships and/or just let the damage fall.

2 DOM (20-16) could absorb 8 damage per round. This would require the Galactics to do 40 damage in 1 round to direct and cripple one of the mother ships.

I think the first values would be reasonable, considering that the Andro's will be facing late war Battlelines with Battle Groups, PFs, and X-Ships, and the COMPOT they provide.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 04:45 pm: Edit

OK, I think we can all agree that the Andro's need some sort of 'absorbtion' plan.

Just what is the limit?

What are some idea that an Andro Force should win/GP force should win?

Let me ask it this way.

Is a GP line, with 120 COMPOT goes against a DOM+INT+9 sat ships. Just one line of GP verses 2 Motherships (figuring if either side wanted to win the hex they'd send reserves along.) And I think we should aim it at DOM+INT because the Andro's (should in theory) only use 2DOM verses Capital/SB Assaults.

Who should win?

Where should the 'cutoff' be about if 120 is to high.

120 (CX+4CVA+3CW+3DW+CW-PFT+CWX)
110 (CX+4CVA+3CW+3DW+CW-PFT)
100 (BCH+3CW+3DW+3NVS+2PF squadrons)
90 (BCH+3CW+3DW+3NVS+2NCA)

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 05:02 pm: Edit

No we can't

The Andros are gonna use 2 Dom's everywhere they can, lets be real here. Their reserves will probably consist of SS carriers to reinforce their Dom's. But thats ok a late war force can generate the 48 points to DD a Dom.