Archive through April 10, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E PRODUCTS:
F&E Future Products (Far Term):
F&E Andro War:
Archive through April 10, 2003
Ed, the Andros are gonna have 4 DOMs, a few more later on.
THey can't afford to have them DD the first time out.
They do need an absorbtion rule of some sort.
I think Ed was refering to my line of "DOM+INT because the Andro's (should in theory) only use 2DOM verses Capital/SB Assaults."
Not that their doesn't need to be an absorbtion rule.
Just allow the Andros to use the form bonus, then if they put 2 Dom lines they will get one DD'ed. If they use Dom + Int then they will be making an INT vulnerable probably.
They don't need an absorbtion rule, it can be handled in other ways.
The palsma/dron thing should be handled by giving Andros the effect of a wild swac. Its simple and incorporates existing rules to cover a situation.
The displacement device will give them some protection and perhaps some offensive power. for instance what if a DisDev would allow you to avoid directed damage? The DisDev rules are likely to be about like SFG anyway.
Doms need to be virtually impossible to kill by DD (should be in the region of 80 when not in form box). The Andros simply do not have enough of them to allow the Galactic to pick them off in standard DD situations. A DOM should be significantly harder to kill than a B10 - if only becuase it has Disdevs.
For those who advocate against an absorbtion rule, please remember that the Andros have no fighters, and supposedly did not often operate with large numbers of back-up satships. To simply ask them to take all their damage on Satships would be ruinous on their casulaties.
I don't want to have to use strength multiplyers on GP battleforces. If we have to got there, please use BIR modifiers instead.
a hodgepodge of answers on the different topics that ahve been discussed today.
David S, BIR vs compot modifiers, If we need something I favor comot modifications, it's less work to total all the various compots and apply the damage roll ehtn to figure all the different multipliers to use based on the BIR modifications.
I really hope we don't have to add another step into the combat sequence just for the andros (which useing the PA panels before DD would require).
I'm not worried about how to represent teh PA factors on the counter, nothing uses \ yet and there are no fighter or DB factors on a andro ship, just PA factors and hanger slots.
crippled andros are far easier to kill then crippled galactics so making them easier to cripple, but harder to kill doesn't match SFB.
Craig, with my proposal if there are not backup motherships a Dom with 24-12(13) would be able to be directed on over several rounds, on the first round the galactics do 30, they use 26 to direct on the Dom letting the other 4 fall, on the second round the dom has cleared 4 points so is effectivly 24-12(4) so 32 would be enough to cripple it (this is assuming the Dom can't shift stuff from the PA panels to sat-ships or energy modules)
DavidL
Under my proposal, Andros would get killed quite freqently - much more than anyone else. They would mainly get crippled by the random 6, and in a sense, this is not a normal cripple - more a retiring due to panel degradation and some leakage. If you really wanted to be mean (and SFB realistic), you could say any andro taking PA damage is *destroyed* on a 6 unless it is a mothership, which is crippled. That way, you could potentially have Satships with no crippled side (cheaper counters). However, others have already commented that SFB has a lot more ships of any race blowing up than we see in F&E, so we shoul allow more Andros being crippled at least to a certain extent to keep things consistent.
Also under my proposal, PAs were used after DD - there is no extra step in combat resolution bar the rolling for crippling andros that use their panels, and I didn't orginally propose BIR modifications. Sure, resolving the damage after DD is a little more complex for the Andro player, but it is still *one* step and not particularly difficult.
Incidentely, what's so complicated about giving, say, the Gorns, -1 BIR vs Andros??? Seems alot easier to me than multiplying their compot by some factor.
Any other problems?
PS
I will admit that something should be done anout low-end damage in my system. it would seem a little silly if an FF could destroy a SATSHIp because it got lucky. However, that can be handled by a modified single combat rule... (where Andros would be MUCH stonger than usual)
Any thought given to how the DisDev would affect F&E combat? Being able to disrupt the enmey's formation bonus or reduce the penalty on directed damage for instance? And/or allow quicker changes to their own formation?
David S, the problem with giving the Gorn a -1 BIR is when you have a mixed Gorn-other fleet. having different BIR ratings for different ships in a battleforce is something I find much uglier then having some additional calculations to do to determin the compot
I had missed your proposal earlier, after looking it over.
auto-kill rules have been rejected by SVC every time they have been proposed, I only beat my head against a wall for so long (at least before I find a different wall to beat it against 
) so I think that part is basicly dead
the idea of a random chance of something going wrong is not a bad idea, although it will add potentially several extra rolls to the combat and a 1/6 chance of being crippled for any damage to the PA panel seems pretty severe, remember that the roll for shock ships was just changed becouse 1/6 was far to severe a roll of 2 on 2d6 would be more reasonable, or possibly only have the chance apply if there is any damage beyond a minimum (in my proposal beyond what would get cleared in one round)
also I don't see the reason to comment about the new ability for small galactic fleets to damage the andros, with my proposal a galactic fleet that does 24 points of damage per round could drive away a single Dominator without much trouble
round 1 direct on the Dom to fill PA panels (12 panels filled)
round 2 4 panels cleared, direct on the Dom again with 10 points to fill the panels, the andto must allocate the other 14 points (which is enough to cripple the Dom so they definantly need to be allocated, the andro puts them in the PA panels of the sat-ships (assume 6xcobra for this example) 6 of these points will be cleared, the other 8 will stick around till next round
round 3 it will take 8 points to fill the Dom's panels again leaving 16 to go to sat-ships, this will fill all the sat-ships PA panels, 6 will get cleared
round 4 8 points at the Dom again and now the andro would need to cripple 3 sat ships and leave a plus point or kill 2 sat ships
round 5 8 points at the dom again and the andro cripples another 3 sat ships plus destroys 1-2 of them
round 6 8 points at the dom and all the remaining sat ships die, leaving a couple plus points
round 7 don't direct and you do enough to kill the Dom
or the other approach is
rounds 1-4 direct on a sat-ship for 18 leaving 6 to be absorbed and dispursed.
round 5 don't direct, the andro can absorb 25 on the PA panels, but only clear 8 so will have 9 spaces on PA panels next round
round 6 don't direct, the andro will absorb 9 on PA panels and will have to allocate the otehr 15 to cripple/kill ships, the sat-ships will only absorb 10 in the process of dieing leaving 5 plus points
round 7 don't direct, you do 29 net destroying the Dom
or
round 1 don't direct, you do 24, he clears 10 leaving 14 in panels
round 2 don't direct, you do 24 he absorbs 23 in panels leaves 1 plus point and clears 10
round 3 don't direct, you do 24 he absorbs 10 and has to allocate the remaining 15 on ships, this will cripple 3 sat ships. he clears 10 from his panels
round 4 don't direct you do 24 he absorbs 10 and cripples the remaining sat-ships, clearing 10 from his panels
round 5 don't direct you do 24 he absorbs 10, kills all 6 sat-ships for 12 and leaves 3 plus points
round 6 don't direct you do 24 he absorbs 4 and blows up
a galactic fleet that has staying power and can do 24 points of damage (~75 compot) will defeat a Dom + sat-ships (~60 compot) but it will take a while to wear the andro down and the galactics will take cripples
this actually does mirror SFB fairly well, the andro shows no degredation for a while, but if they stay around just a little to long they die rapidly once they really start taking damage
also note that a 100 compot galactic fleet is a serious threat to a Dom
round 1 direct on a Dom for 26 (the rest of the damage goes elsewhere and is dispursed)
round 2 if the same dom shows up again direct on it again, crippling it
David - there are several problems with the above.
1) each F&E round is supposed to be a whole SFB battle. Under that logic, all the panels should clear entirely between battlerounds.
2) keeping track of PA panel stati will be a real pain - much more annoying than some simple dice rolls
3) In either case above, the Andro can leave without a scratch after round 2, with no GP persuit. That can't be right. Also, if you allow the Andros to cycle ships (presumably the GP player is), then it will be hard for the GP player to scratch the Andros at all, even when doing more damage (except by dirdam).
I think using a SIDS based concept for damage would still work out the best. A DOM for example, could take 6 4 point damage steps (or whatever number works out for that ship) which would cause the ship to be crippled. Let's say that the first 3 damage steps will 'regenerate' at a rate of 1 per combat round if the ship stays in combat, or they will fully regenerate if the ship is held out of action for a combat round. The last 3 damage steps would represent more premanent damage that could not be cleared during combat. The 'permanent' damage would be required to be repaired immediately after the combat hex is resolved. If not, then that ship is out of action (goes back to the base in the LMC or whereever) until it can be repaired.
I think the SIDS idea has potential. It may end up being the best solution (not as clean as damage absorption, but can force big ships off the line)
If you want to protect Andros from DD, which I think we do the rule should be in the Displacment Device not "absorption".
The DisDev has a 1 in 6 chance of malfunction.
If it succeeds the target is one step better off. IE crippled instead of destroyed or not effected (damage wasted) if it was only crippled with directed damage.
SIDS will work nicely in theory.
But again, you have to ignore the fact the F&E battles are over longer timescales.
You also have to keep track of all those SIDS.
You also have very significant damage absorption if the Andros can cycle ships (which they surely will in any major engagement).
e.g DOM can take 12 every other round
Satships can take 2 every other round.
- two DOM complements cycling in turn can take 24 damage every round without having to cripple. (or you could have a DOM cycling with 2 INTs).
Geoff, re: Displacement Device
It's been noted that the DisDev protects the Andros from WebCasters and the ISC don't get the Echelon bonus against them. That's 2 things.
The other thing suggested so far, is possibly no pursuit option against the Andros.
Re single combat
A Fed FF isn't that bad off against an Andro courier for example.
The Displacement Device should be treated very similarly to SFGs (IMHO). Perhaps only 1 target instead of 3 (the mothership keeps it's other Dis Dev for "normal" operations).
Enemy ships that are disdeved in have no fire control, suddenly can find themselves at very close range to a terminator, etc.
Tony
I would give the Doms 2 DisDev attempts and other motherships 1.
So maybe a SFG chart like this:
1-3: COMPOT of target ship halved (PFs+ftrs unaffected)
4-5: COMPOT of target ship at -2
6: No Effect
Ships in formation get +1
X-Ships targets get +1
Like that? Or more elaborate
Don't forget defensive use od DisDev, to prevent directed damage attacks
Oh, well I would just assume, that any mothership with 2 DisDev's, would get 1 roll, the other being used defensively all the time.
Those with 3+ DisDev would get 2 rolls.
Going from what Tony (?) posted before:
COQ: 2xDisDev
EXP: 2xDisDev
MIS: 2xDisDev
RAV: 2xDisDev
INT: 2xDisDev
IMP: 2xDisDev
INF: 2xDisDev
INS: 2xDisDev
DOM: 4xDisDev
DMX: 4xDisDev
DMN: 4xDisDev,
Frankly, I'd like to see it use the SFG charts exactly.
The DOM goes in with the intent to displace the Fed CC, but due to circumstances can only grab a DW instead.
I like 2 attempts for DOM hulls, 1 for COQ & INT, 0 for others (Python, cargo ships, etc - sat ships).
Maybe
COQ-1: 1 attacker selects, 2 random, 3-4 defender select, 5-6 nothing
INT-1: 1 attacker selects, 2-3 random, 4-5 defender selects, 6 nothing
DOM-1: 1-2 attacker selects, 3-4 random, 5 defender selects, 6 nothing
DOM-2: 1 attacker, 2-3 random, 4-5 defender, 6 nothing
Note, no "Total Disaster" as the Andros will still be mobile & have more tactical options than an SFG ship.
They also don't suffer lost compot or loss of defenses that SFGs do.
Targetted ships are treated just like SFG targets (lost compot & special abilities; targetted at 1 to 1). Andros can use disdev defensively just like SFGs - 1-5 on d6 perhaps for success. When used defensively, that unit loses all special abilities & 1/2 compot (instead of full compot - it's just yanked away at a critical moment). The negative effects for defensive use apply even if the attempt failed (I believe that's how the disdev works in SFB).
The failure rates are much higher for Disdev than for SFG (since it actually has to roll at fairly low chances at normal fleet ranges).
Given that all motherships have disdev, IMHO it would be better to make the advantages "built-in," not individual rolls.
No they need to be rolls, that way 1 in 6 times you can actually get a Dominator. Otherwise Doms may be impossible to get, and they shoudn't be impossible.
Disdevs may fial more often, but you don't have to stop to use them!!!!