Archive through April 16, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E PRODUCTS:
F&E Future Products (Far Term):
F&E Andro War:
Archive through April 16, 2003
David: I really don't see need for markers beyond Maulers, Scouts, and Transports. Maybe Cargo.
Energy Modules, Pseudo Sat Ships, and MWPs all disappear into the general factors. A given mothership, at a given moment, may have some mix of all of the above, or not. Either way, their effects even out and are just the satship factors in operation (e.g. a PSS doesn't have attack value in and of itself, but draws off fire and allows the Andro force to get a better shot). Combat is a series of skirmishes and battles over 6 months, and the Andro will be using individual items as needed. Just like we'll never see drogues or special drones or such, they vanish at the F&E scale.
As for the others, basically each marker has a defense value. You add up the defense values of all special mission markers that were used. If the mothership doesn't have factors equal to this after the end of combat, then it has to lose markers till it does (probably include a half-value limit similair to damagin ships, so you don't lose a defense 7 marker to 1 missing satship factor). Cargo could simply be a Cargo marker with an ID box, and you simply record how many satship factors are being used to carry cargo (with the ratio of factors to EPs of cargo being defined).
Another possible wrinkle, if it's decided to represent the switch to medium and large satships (and the more capable variants) is to not have the numbers on the markers at all. They start with a certain set of values representing Viper-variants, then in YNNN switch to Cobra-variants with higher values, then in Y-??? switch to Mambas with even larger values. The other and simpler option is to just assume that the switches in satship sizes vanish as part of the refit concept.
You do not need satship counters. Just declare that:
1. Whatever satship they lost, they get a new one in their replacement system (which ain't quite like the other races).
2. Use a standard package which includes so many mauler points (in fact, just ignore the maulers and give the ships a few more points; which I think we already did).
3. Give motherships a standard set EW to account for the satscout.
The whole problem not only evaporates but was never there. Once you do not need satships, you don't need panels either.
Alex, was that in reply to my post? I intended to suggest only doing maulers scouts, transports and EM (the latter is debatable, but sufficiently different to perhaps be interesting).
All of that is already in CL#11. We don't need sat ship counters, we don't need mauler markers, we don't need satscout markers, we just need CL#11. Nothing else. It's done, it's fine, it's simple, it's clean.
panel clearing.... my god, these people are crazy.
David: We don't even need that. Just check the CL#11 rules. We're NOT going to have maulers, scouts, transports, or EMs because we do not need them. We're going to have the CL#11 rules.
Jeez, you guys have set back AndroWar by at least two years.
Panels? Satships? FAGEDABOUDIT!
Oops, it was for David Lang, sorry.
Steve, that leaves the GPs unable to reduce an Andro force's mauler/scout capability as long as it has satship factors being feed into it. There's also the question of how plentiful scouts and maulers were for motherships (especially in the case of motherships with smaller hangers, such as the Conquistador and Imposer).
Alex: That's all covered in CL#11. They have an adequate supply of scoutsats and maulsats and you cannot run a dominator out of either one. There is no 'problem of plentifulness' involved.
The smaller ones don't have maulers and the scout thing isn't really important to the smaller motherships anyway.
Panels? Satships? FAGEDABOUDIT!
Ok, with motherships getting increased factors based on standard EM, PSS, scout, mauler, troopship assignment and having a supply system that never runs out of them takes care of the need for individual satship counters (although I will admit I haven't gone and dug up CL#11 so I don't remember those ships having such factors, it was after all a preview 
)
so the next question is does this also satisfy the staying power issue?
if a Dom is 24(32) with some EW, a G or two, X points of mauling ability, etc
have a fight of 2xDom (112) vs a eqivalent galactic fleet (say BG for 40-38, DN, scout, 6xCA,ADM to keep it simple)
assume 30% damage
round 1
each side does 34 points of damage
andro takes it on sat-ships
galactic cripples 3xcw,3xDW (2 minus points)
round 2 andro is now 48(34)=82 while the galactics are at 97
galactics do 29 the andros do 25-2=23
andro takes it on sat-ships
galactics cripples 3xCA (1 minus point)
round 3 andro is now 48(5)=53 while the galactics are at 85
galactics do 26 andros do 16-1=15
andros take 5 on sat ships and must cripple a Dom (3 minus points)
galactics cripple 2xCA (1 minus point)
round 4 andro is now 36(0) while the galactics are at 79
galactics do 24-3=21 andros do 10-1=9
andros cripple the second Dom (3 minus points)
galactics cripple 1xCA (1 plus point)
round 5 andro is now 24(0) while the galacics are at 75
galactics do 23-3=20 andros do 7+1=8
andros kill both Dom, galactics cripple the DN
end result 2 dead Doms and a crippled galactic line.
realisticly the andro would retreat after round 2 or 3 trading a few crippled galactic ships for dead sat-ship factors, but 2xDom should be a hard fight for a fed SCS group with a CX, F5X and B-10 in support (as per the CL that had this fight on the cover) and here we have a medium-good galactic line driving them off fairly easily
the problem is that the sat-ship losses are pure losses like fighters. if you don't have backups to feed additional ones forward then the forces effectivness fades very rapidly
Men, Have you heard the boss ?
No satellites, no panels ! 
David,
Why would the 2xDOM stay ?
I think our main error (me included) is we see the Andromedans with our eyes deformed by years of General War: we think in term of battle force, staying power, repairs, and so on...
Andromedans are raiders, they will try to attack weak hexes not hexes with a full SCS battleforce. And if they encounter such a force, they go elsewhere...
we heard, he gave us the one pice of info we were missing, namely that the andro supply system was good enough that they never ran out of specialty ships so their special abilities can be abstracted into the mothership.
so now I'm asking how we can get the reasonable combat results with this system. the numbers as they currently stand don't work.
it may be something as simple as the andros getting replacement sat-ship factors between combat rounds without the need to have additional motherships to carry them to the fight, or it may be something else
Philippe, the andros weren't just raiders, they were out to occupy the galaxy. They won in the LMC and are out to win here.
they work just fine as big nasty raiders, where things fall down is when they try to stay around and actually win.
remember that they did destroy the LDR and I think someone mentioned a capitol assault or two (ISC and klingon capitols IIRC)
also note that the battle line I put up was not a SCS maxed out force. in fact it was a fairly modest force the andros had ~2100 BPV while the galactics had ~1800 BPV yet in spite of the fact the andros were in serious trouble by round 3
up the galactic fleet a bit and things get even worse (even if you only up the fleet by giving them a couple extra CW's to use as replacements)
OK
SVC has said we use the basic rules in CL11. Probably only mild modifications will be allowed.
I reread them last night.
A couple of things would help alot.
1) I think EW is too cheap for the Andros. Each mothership can convert 4satship factors to 4EW. In effect, this means that all Andro fleets will be flying with 8EW and never any other value.
Having said that, most galactic fleets in the late war will have tremendous EW potential, so maybe this is not out of whack. Just somewhat odd that the Andros will stick to a pretty predictable EW value.
2) I think SVC may be amenable to some replacement of satship factors between battlerounds for an EP cost - say 12 for a DOM (2EP) and 6 for an INT (1EP).
Although the Andros have very poor staying power, I do note that satship factors under CL11 are replaced free, exactly like fighter factors. This is a major perk.
Dave.
Quote:the andros weren't just raiders, they were out to occupy the galaxy. They won in the LMC and are out to win here.
I agree, but disagree.
The Andros play fine as uber-raiders. Over time, they're ability to prevent the galactics from rebuilding their economies will allow them to become overwhelming.
They beat the LDR in a straight up shooting match (don't know exact LDR factors, but certainly they don't have super lines and definitely don't have staying power - advantage Andros).
They made at least 2 capital raids - Klingon & ISC. However, the ISC one was against only the Echelon of X-ness. IIRC, the Klingon one was severly limited forces also. The point of those scenarios in SFB is that if the Andros have the chance (and they'll ALWAYS have the chance due to the RTN) they'll gladly jump your underdefended capital.
The Andros don't (and shouldn't) have the same playing style as other races in F&E. They have different goals. Any race that's willing to put ships in transit for 200 years is certainly willing for the invasion to go on for more than 18.
They have no chance against Galactic Uber lines over massive fixed defenses. They don't in SFB & they shouldn't in F&E. Therefore (IMHO) they need to concentrate on killing everything the Galactics can't defend (assuming no reserves & no reaction - this should definitely be a pushover)... that's a good portion of the galaxy already. Sure, 2xDOM + 2xINT for backups can't take on a fortified position, but those same ships will really tear up a lot of BATS, convoys, FRDs, etc
Tony
I disagree.
The Andros cannot win by raiding. Even if you delay the GPs reserve movement against Andro attacks, they can put prohibitive defenses on their capitals on a persistent basis, and have enough ships left over to have very stong defenses on many planets.
Take the Klingons as an example. Their base economy is, say 132 after Vudar losses. Assume they have lost all off-map economy.
The Klingons have 11 empty provinces, 6 minor-planet provinces, and three major planet provinces on top of the capital province (which also has a major planet)
The Capital has 49econ which tha Andro's won't be able to scratch. Let's assume the Klingons assign 40 ships to defend it, and three reserves sit here (~10 will be X-ships note).
Let's assume the total Klingon fleet is about 200 ships (vastly down from wartime levels), and all non-capital SBs have been destroyed (a worst case scenario)
That leaves 15 ships for each Major (which should hold against even determined andros until reserves come) = 60.
12 ships for each minor = 72
and 28 ships left over. (? for offensive actions, extra reserve, or whatever).
Now, the Andros are going to struggle to take even one planet off the Klingons even if you make reserve movement difficult for the GPs. That's pretty much safeguarded ~96 econ for the Klingons.
Even if you somehow assume the Andros can get all of the remaining 36Econ off the Klingons (i.e. get 2EP for raiding the Klingon capital province while the Klinks still hold the capital), the Klingons still hold the vast majority of thier empire immune from Andro raids.
Realisitically speaking, the best the Andros can do by raiding is getting ca. 20EP off the klingons and leaving the Klingons with ca 110 economy prior to exhaustion modifiers.
That's nowhere near "winning". They can do that until the cows come home, and they will lose when X-ships start to build up. They MUST take planets and more or less need to take capitals, or at least reduce entire races to just a capital hex. (I note that even if the Andros took all klingon/vudar territory except the capital, under normal rules, the Andros get 43 econ to the Klingons 50).
I am beginning to think we should perhaps have two Andro OBs.
One historical one, which basically is only enough for raid strategies, and is simply how long the Andros can last.
One dangerous one, where the Andros can actually win.
I think we need to just leave it to SVC to come up with the workable line. We seem to have hit a brick wall.
I haven't seen any wall, just a fundamental lack of grasping what the Andros are doing and how they're doing it.
For pre-invasion raiding, they work fine, you all said that.
Once the invasion begins, they have stacks of ships in your planet but only two DOMs on the gunline. Satship transfers between rounds? Of course. What made you think otherwise?
Remember that an F&E battle hex is a number of battles over a period of six months. An F&E turn means six months of ships moving around. You guys are stuck in SFB where only 2 ships can arrive in a given location. In F&E, there is no such limit, as they arrive 2 this week and 2 next week and 2 the week after, repeat for six months and you can stack 52 ships in the hex without even thinking that alternate routes could be 500 or 5000 or five million Andro ships "arriving" in a hex during operational movement.
These problems don't exist but were created by illusions and phantoms.
Might need to look into the concept of escalating satships, which could mean that a dominator full of cobras has 32 satfactors while a Dominator with larger satships has a somewhat denser group.
I don't think andros actually use EPs. Even if they do, remember that they have a huge economy in the Mag Cloud and steady arrivals from back home.
So, just to clarify for a major Andro assualt...
Lets say that the andros arrive at a major planet (say) with 2DOMs and 10INTs.
This gives them 224 satship factors.
So what effectively happens is that the Andros blast away until thier 224 goes poof, then buzz off. The Galactics may or may not have held the planet, but unless the DOMs are hit, the Andros effectively take no damage.
I note that the current rule do make DOMs almost invulnerable unless the Andros are attaking SB-grade defences, and even then, it will be at best 50/50 per round to cripple a DOM with a maxed-out GP fleet.
But there lies the rub. Sooner or later, to win, the andros will have to assualt the big boys. And if those big boys can cripple the DOMs by DD, the Andros are in for big problems unless thier DOMs are cranked up significantly from current OBs.
Needless to say, true capital defenses will KILL Doms outright by DD (98 is very doable given PF-floatilla PDUs and X-SB with late-war lines), and the Andros can't afford to lose any.
I don't think the Andro will have a problem with 'super dense' forces of the GP. Here's why:
Imagine the GP turn, they move around their ship (getting cripples back to Capital/FRDs) if the Andro's can 'react' to any move 3+ hexes from a SB (RTN network EVERYWHERE) they pin the bejesus out of the GP forces, and kill significant number of ships.
Andro Turn.
Raiding Phase. Lets say the Andros have a Raid Pool of 20 ships (lets say a Cap of 4 DOM's in the Raid Pool). A DOM chugs into a hex, and is promptly attacked by the 5-8 ships there, and 3-4 get crippled. He leaves.
Movement Phase. Now the Andro's attack again (the same hex) with DOM+INT and now those ships are already with 50% cripples (or out Fighters/PFs) from the earlier battle.
Thus the Andro's are seeming to be 'everywhere' and giving the GP's a smackdown. Imagine having to defend against mutliple major attacks every turn, and shudder.
Remember also that DOM will not be so common.
Well, if they Andro's can have more than two motherships in a battle, then there is no problem.
From here: http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/3743.html?1049426323
Where Jeff L. posted the Andro OOB (arrivals) it pretty much sums up the Andro Dominator force as:
to Y190: 5
Then every 6 months 1 DOM until Y197.
So the maximum they have is about 20 (if you figure Y197) as the 'end of the blitz'.
Total about 20 Dominators. Even if they lose 1 DOM, every 2 turns, that still leaves them with ~12 DOMs floating around.
DAS,
I guess we see the problem fundamentally differently (not saying you're right or I'm wrong, just different).
Assume for the sake of arguement your setup (Klingons, all planets, 200 ships, etc). Setting up 40 ships + 30 ship reserve on the capital & disperssing the rest is the perfect thing for the Andros. Keep in mind however, the Klingons are operating on 50% economy already, so every EP removed is pretty hard for them to take...
Again, I assume that reaction & reserves can't be used against the Andros (which is apparently a different assumption than you make).
Andro plan 1 - Only 70 ships on the capital!!!
Send every DOM, INT, and COQ in range (and my assumption is every Andro is in range of everything due to the RTN) into the Klingon capital. Who cares if the Andro may not be able to take it, they can certainly devestate most planets and knock off a couple of SBs. In 1 turn they can cut the Klingon homeworld income about in half.
Andro plan 2 - What, they have only 15 ships per planet!!!
Go in and devestate/capture EVERY non-capital planet (and garrison with a Python). 12-15 ships can't hold up against a couple of Intruders with backup Sat ships & COQs.
Either way, within a few turns from the start of the invasion, every race will have been targetted (say T1-2, ISC since they're dispersed; then 2 turns per other race - so 7-8 years). Of course the Galactics will be able to strike back & reclaim some (or a even a lot) of their lost planets, but they won't be producing any income for a year, and limited income for 2 years.
Sure the Klingons can operate fine on 132 EPs per turn, but how will they handle 40-60?
So, IMHO...
Phase 1 (pre-DOM): Andros are AO style raiders (ie, they show up, disrupt/kill something, disappear)
Phase 2 (DOM shows up - "Invasion" begins): Andros devestate/capture outlying worlds, cut off exposed chunks of territory (ie, anything more than 6 hexes from homeworlds/really hard points). They soften up the Galactics by limiting their incomes dramatically. Who cares if the Klingons can produce 22 ships per turn if they can only afford (on top of cripples & infrastructure) 5-10.
Phase 3 (never happened in SFB because the Galactics started Unity): Hold off (as in Phase 2) all galactic powers, but pick 1 race & destroy them. Systematically strip their systems, then once you can produce an ovewhelming force, go in & take their homeworld. This is after several YEARS of weakening (every turn, the Galactics get weaker, every turn the Andros get stronger). Recover for a few turns, then repeat on the next target.
Again, IMHO, the Andros have a very long view on what an "Invasion" is. A few decades is nothing for a race that sends invasion forces multiple centuries on the road...
SCott, it's 1 per YEAR no ?
It's 1 DOM per year, until Y189 (or so), then it's 2/year until Y197. (So 1 per F+E turn of 6 months)