Try to sell them for as much as you can and otherwise they are useful as retrograde, strat move, repair and supply points and make it less likely your opponent will raid (or at least have to use bigger ships) a province or occupy it with just an FF or something.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 09:02 am: Edit

BATS are handy to have, as noted, as retrograde points, minor repair points, and supply. They are also worth VPs in the long run (5VPs at the end of game; SBs are worth, IIRC, 30VPs; existing ships are worth 1/5th of a VP?).

That being said, a lot of times, the retrograde/supply aspect of BATS can be worked around due to planets (which can't be destroyed--you can capture and hold a planet, and if you have it, it is a supply and retrograde point; BATS are moderately easy to kill with directed damage, even if you can't take control of the hex they are in), and while it is good to defend and save BATS when you can, it often takes a lot more effort than it seems worth, especially if you are the Coalition and trying to be on the aggressive offensive.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 10:42 am: Edit

One problem I had with using BATS as repair points is that if I just put a damaged ship there to wait for repairs at the beginning of my turn I was often tempting an attack on the crippled ship. No big deal, I can use a reserve but then I have to deal with having to split off a bunch of cripples to different bases and I cannot screen them all.

Also, if the players of the game want to stop this tangent just let me know. I find this kind of discussion interesting but it your thread and if you do not like it you should not have to put up with it.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 11:04 am: Edit

Nah, it's fine for now. It is all short and reasonable, and between actual moves.

Yeah, like, mostly, I'm surprised that someone looked at the Turn 20 map, and was surprised that the Klingons had lost 10 BATS. Like, I guess Chuck mostly was confused by thinking there were more dead Starbases than there actually were (a Lyran SB was under a pile of ships; a Romulan SB is hidden under a Klingon MB that is built next to it), but that the Klingons have lost about 10 BATS by T20? How is that *not* a mostly expected result?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 04:18 pm: Edit

Please don’t take any of my questions as criticism — I did think that there were 3 Coalition SBs destroyed in addition to the BTS losses. I apologize for my error.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 04:43 pm: Edit

Chuck,

It's all cool. I was just kind of all "Wait, what? It is unusual for the Klingons to have lost 10 BATS by T20? Wha?", but yeah, in retrospect, if it looked like the Coalition has lost 3SB also, yeah, I could see the raised eyebrow :-)

As noted, the NR SB was killed completely due to me miscounting ships (i.e. it was a preventable error). The BATS, well, BATS are gonna die :-)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 05:13 pm: Edit

CT20

Moves continue!

Hydran and Kzinti space seem to be mostly done.

In Gorn space, the Romulans have about 85 SEQ over shipyard hex 4402 (vs about 74 Gorn SEQ plus significant fixed defenses), two dozen SEQ (vs 16 Gorn SEQ+fixed defenses) over capital hex 4403, 16 SEQ (vs about 12 Gorn SEQ+fixed defenses) over capital hex 4503. The Romulans also moved a convoy into hex 4505, so there will clearly be some sort of retreat into an attack shenanagins in one of the Gorn non shipyard capital hexes.

In Fed space, the Coalition are attacking SB 2901 with about 2 dozen ships; there are 7 ships at the BATS, and then some number of reserve ships will get there, but not that many; the Klingons have attacked planet 2705 (reinforced by some Fed reaction to about 15 SEQ ships on a side) and then sent a kind of feeble pinning force to BATS 2905 (where there are another 8 Fed SEQ already) of about 15 SEQ, which will block about half of the possible reserves that can reach 2901. The Klingons then sent numerous and belligerent ships to attack the two planets and BATS in the Orion Enclave, who immediately begged the Federation for forgiveness and military aid. Which may or may not show up in the for of some reserves.

There are still a significant pile of Romulans and Klingons in Fed space to move, but at this point, they certainly can't get into the Capital.

Moves continue.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 30, 2018 - 08:39 pm: Edit

CT20

Moves are done and reserves have moved!

In Hydran space, giant, 150 SEQ on a side fight in 0217 (probably will be a single round); another fight of 2 dozen SEQ of Lyrans vs about 3 dozen SEQ of Hydrans in 0215 (reserves showed up there).

In Kzinti space, there is a giant mob of ships in 1401 (155 SEQ of Coalition, more than that of Kzinti, as both off map reserves showed up there). Coalition are also recapturing 1202 and 1502 unopposed.

In Fed space, the Klingons are attacking BATS 2603 (About 2 dozen ships on each side); planet 2705 (about 15 Klingons vs about 12 Feds); SB 2901 (about 30 coalition vs about 22 Feds; the Coalition have a compot advantage, except for the SB...); BATS 2905 (about 15 Klingons vs about 15 Feds including a reserve that opened the way for two other reserves to get to 2901); retaking planet 2610 unopposed; attacking all three hard targets in the Orion enclave with overwhelming force. The Romulans are retaking planets 3005, 3306, and 3706 unopposed (there might be another reserve going somewhere else, as a small reserve moved somewhere it couldn't move).

In Gorn space, there is a huge Romulan fleet in 4402 (but it is outgunned by the Gorn) and two moderate (two dozen or smaller) fleets in each 4403 and 4503, both opposed by 15 or so Gorn (including a reserve). They are trying to retake planet 4702 with a few ships, but a small reserve went there, which will foil that attack. They are also attacking SB 4206 with what is clearly a single round pinning attack.

21 combat hexes, but a lot of them are unopposed planet recapturing.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, October 31, 2018 - 08:48 am: Edit

CT20

Reserve Update!

The Feds sent a 7 ship reserve (mostly FFs) to go help the fickle Orions at minor planet 2811.

Combat has started in Hydran and Fed space, in the two fights in Fed space, rolls and lines were average, and likely both sides will lose an FF escort (the Lyrans might lose a CW), and one side will likely retreat after a single round.

At the Fed SB in 2901, the dice were crazy; VBIR rolled up to 9; KLI rolled a 6, Feds rolled a 5; after the -2 EW shift the Feds still did 50 damage. The Klingons mauled 12 fighters on the SB. Unsure what the Feds will do yet.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 01, 2018 - 08:21 am: Edit

CT20

Combat continues!

Over 2901, we are 3 rounds in; both sides have been dropping damage (unusual in this game), trying to wear the other side down, except when the Coalition mauled all the SB fighters (the only fighters in the hex) on R1. Ships are crippling like nuts. The SB has taken 6 SIDS. On R3, BIR was 3, KLI rolled a 1, Feds rolled a 3, for not much damage on either side. Combat will likely continue.

The Klingons have captured/destroyed everything in the Orion Enclave. That'll teach them to secede.

In Hydran space both fights were a single round, we both lost FFs, and the Hydrans retreated. They will end the turn in supply, and about 35 ships (including mostly FFs) are in range of Lyran SB 0411).

In Kzinti space, the only significant fight is the Capital. It remains to be seen if the Coalition are actually going for the homeworld (with SB and 20 PDU) or going to redevastste the outer planets (which recover this turn?), or a little of both.

In Gorn space, a small Gorn reserve saved a devastated minor from being recaptured (killing a hapless SEH in the process), and now the big Romulan fleet over the shipyard is offering an approach. It isn't certain that they will immediately retreat to then go kill a neighboring capital hex through retreat shenanigans. The Gorn force can retreat to either of the neighboring capital hexes, and then the Romulans can retreat to the other. So one hex will likely get smashed and captured, and the other will see the Romulans attacking it get mangled and flee.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 01, 2018 - 05:33 pm: Edit

CT20

Fed SB 2901 has gone down; the Coalition lost a CW and then took BC, STT, D7C, D7, D6, 2AD5, 3DW as cripples; the Feds took NCL, 6FF as cripples. The Feds probably could have lasted one more round, but chose to minimize their own damage. The Coalition could not successfully cut the Feds off from the off map zone.

In Gorn space, the Romulans immediately retreated from 4402; the main Gorn fleet retreated to 4503 (where both planets are untouched, and the Romulan fleet there is smaller and less dangerous) while the Romulan fleet retreated to 4403, facing the SB and 4PDU over the minor planet along with 14 Gorn ships.

Combat continues.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, November 03, 2018 - 08:37 am: Edit

CT20

The Romulans have captured Gorn Capital hex 4403 (i.e. *not* the main shipyard hex), the SB going down in 7 rounds; the Romulans lost 6 ships and took a bunch of cripples; the Gorn lost the SB, 4PDU, 5 ships.

In the neighboring capital hex of 4503, the main Gorn fleet chased off a moderately feeble Romulan fleet with the DNT, mauling a ship in the approach, and probably mauling a couple more cripples in pursuit.

A few more fights left to go--a pinning approach over Gorn SB 4206, and the Coalition attack on the Kzinti Capital, which might see the Coalition hitting the Kzinti homeworld, or might just be an attack to redevastate the non Homeworld planets (Spoiler! It's probably the second one...)

Dice this turn have been surprisingly even; in 21 recorded combat rolls, both sides have rolled exactly a total of 81 (average of 3.85), so we are both rolling well, and a little above average. That being said, the two most important rolls the Alliance made this turn were terrible--the first round over the Gorn major planet and SB in 4403, where their compot was 175 was a 1; the approach in 4503 with the DNT where a good roll meant lots of cripples to kill in pursuit was a 2. But other than that, dice have been perfectly even and reasonable.

A few fights left to go.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, November 04, 2018 - 08:22 am: Edit

CT20

Down to a single combat (in 1401) which is underway. The last fight in Romulan space saw the Romulans offer an approach over SB 4206, the Gorn declining, and then the Romulans running away.

In 1401, the Kzinti parked half their fleet over the homeworld, and the Coalition have just been going planet by planet, re-devastating (with maulers) while losing a ship and some fighters each time. It remains to be seen if they will go to Kzintai, but it seems unlikely.

Assuming the Coalition just redevastate the 7 non homeworld planets, that is costing the Kzinti 15EPs a turn for the next 4 turns (i.e. 60EPs), if they lose a DWE or CW each of the 7 rounds, that is costing them 35EPs, minus salvage (7-10EPs refunded), plus stray cripples and the occasionally shocked out mauler, the Coalition comes out ahead, EP wise, but behind, hull count wise.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 08:39 pm: Edit

CT20

Combat is over! In 1401, the last fight, the Coalition just redevastated all the already devastated planets with maulers while the Kzinti shot down the biggest ships they could. Over the 7 rounds, the Lyrans lost 2STT, 3DWE, 2DW, and took a couple cripples; the Kzinti lost fighters and took 5 or 6 crippled FFs, but the planets all got crippled. In 7 rounds, the Lyran maulers managed to avoid getting shocked out 5 times, but 2 maulers got vaporized, so they didn't roll.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 09:02 pm: Edit

CT20

The turn is over!

In Hydran space, not much happened. The Coalition pinned Hydrans, swapped some FFs, and recaptured some space, but the Hydrans are all on the map, and all in supply.

In Kzinti space, the Coalition recaptured most of Kzinti space, all the planets outside of the Capital except 1802, and redevastated all the Kzinti capital planets that aren't the Homeworld. The Kzinti still have 20PDUs and a SB over Kzintai, and they get heavy fighter upgrades starting this turn.

In Fed space, the Klingons killed SB 2901 right by the off map area, but couldn't manage to cut the of map off form the Capital. They also conquered and captured the Orion province (possibly to shift operations in that direction, as they sense the Tholians starting to be aggressive...)

In Gorn space, the Romulans have captured Gorn Capital hex 4403 (not the shipyard hex), but probably won't hold it through the Gorn turn.

Ships killed:
-LYR: 2STT, 2CW, 3DWE, 2DW
-KLI: 2D7C, D5, F5L, (E4)
-ROM: SPC, SPF, (SPC), 3SKF, SEE, 2SEH

-ZIN:
-HYD: 2CU
-FED: CA, NCL, FF
-GRN: 2MCC, 3HD, BDE, DDE

Coalition lost 23 ships, Alliance lost 12.

The Gorn lost a SB, 4PDU, 2 planets; The Fed lost SB, 2BATS, 6PDU, 2 planets.

The Lyrans have an easily pinned reserve in 0416, unpinnable reserves in 0708 and 1910, but they can't reach that much; the Klingons have easily pinned reserves in 2403, 2509, and 3210, and an unpinnable reserve in 2916 (which also can't reach that much); the Romulans have an easily pinnable reserve in 3509, and unpinnable reserves in 3711 and 4309.

The Coalition sent a lot of ships via strategic movement (mostly small/sub-optimal units) to the ex-Hydran capital; the Lyrans are currently finishing a second SB over the Hydran homeworld; it seems likely they are trying to defend that investment. This means, however, that there ended up a significant lack of reserves on the Kzinti front (2 Lyran reserves can reach the edge of Kzinti space, and that is it). It remains to see if this works out to my advantage or not.

The Coalition spent 56 EPs between the Klingons and Romulans on field repair; they have numerous (~20) cripples stuck on the front lines, with no easy access to repair. There is at least one Klingon FRD that moved to the front (planet 2403) that is in danger of getting killed if the Feds are persistent.

In terms of combat dice, the two sides rolled almost exactly even; in 29 recorded combat rolls, the Coalition totaled 108 (avg 3.72) and the Alliance totaled 107 (avg 3.68).

Map to follow.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Map at the end of CT20:

http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/SCD2mapCT20end.html

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 09:27 am: Edit

Looking very grim for the Alliance, from an armchair perspective. Your assessment closer to the ground?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 11:46 am: Edit

I dunno. The Fed Capital is virtually immune from attack (more Feds than Coalition in the area; can pin out any attack currently); the Gorn shipyard is reasonably secure from capture (not enough ships nearby to reasonably take it); the Kzinti capital is reasonably secure from capture (getting heavy fighters starting this turn on SB and next turn on 20PDUs). The Hydrans are likely to never get their Capital back again, but they are sucking up a lot of ships from elsewhere (the Hydrans are up to about 200 SEQ on the map). And in 2 turns, the Tholians start attacking, and they have a lot of ships to worry about. Yeah, they can't go real far, but I was super dumb, like, 11 turns ago and built co-located Romulan and Klingon SBs exactly 2 hexes from Tholian space (as it was where I could build them at the time without worrying about Fed interference), so that is going to be an actual issue.

The Alliance economy is weak, but they still can produce full lines of ships (although a lot of ships are subbed as FFs). PFs are now in play, but the Kzinti, as noted, get heavy fighters on their defenses right about now.

Like, I think the Coalition is certainly winning this game currently. But I don't think there is any possible way that the Coalition is going to end the game before a T35 or whatever timeout, and the Alliance is steadily gaining in ship count as the Coalition steadily loses more hulls per turn.

I won't be surprised if at the end of this, the Coalition is marginally winning on points, but I think this is mostly bound to be a long, drawn out attrition war.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Awesome! Carry on!

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Im hoping at some point to win back a chunk of Fed space but it wont be easy.

Peter could play safe for a marginal win and ignore the Capitals and just kill SB. Boring but guaranteed win.

Or risk a Capital assault costing a lot and seeing a big Alliance fightback with the big ship superiority.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Yeah, I think the Tholians are going to make a *significant* difference in the flow of events.

Like, I probably can keep them from killing anything super important, but that explosion of ships in the south is going to tie up a lot of my ships, which will give the Feds a lot more room to move.

I'm making a giant hole in your economy, and if you aren't careful, I can probably cut the Feds off of their off map zone (which is a giant hassle, but not the end of the world or anything; you just gotta have some TGs off map to cart money around), but still, you are churning out ships at an alarming rate, and I'm losing more than you are.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 08, 2018 - 07:59 am: Edit

AT20

Econ is underway; the Alliance doesn't have tons of money (well, except the Gorn, who are loaded. They might want to start sending money to the Feds...), so they need to figure out what to do, but they are working on it.

By David J. Johnson (Djj) on Thursday, November 08, 2018 - 01:58 pm: Edit

When do the Vudar start annexing Klingon provinces?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 08, 2018 - 02:16 pm: Edit

In this game? Never :-)

We are using F+E2K10, Fighter Ops, Combined Ops, and Advanced Ops (minus a few rules we didn't like for being too fiddly, like Marine Attack/SAFs, SFGs, Penal Ships). Vudar are in an expansion we aren't using.

I think the Tholians will do about all they need to in that regard.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, November 08, 2018 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Not many turns of activity for the Tholians so I need to get it right !