what i'd really like is to pick and choose from the expansions as there is some stuff i'd rather not do and some i'd love. no idea on balance issues though.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 09, 2019 - 06:35 am: Edit

what i'd really like is to pick and choose from the expansions as there is some stuff i'd rather not do and some i'd love. no idea on balance issues though.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 09, 2019 - 06:35 am: Edit

what i'd really like is to pick and choose from the expansions as there is some stuff i'd rather not do and some i'd love. no idea on balance issues though.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, March 09, 2019 - 06:43 am: Edit

Jim

As the interaction of each rule will be different depending on what rule sets are being played with.

Easiest example is just part of CO was played with

SAF's are very very very powerful.

If we only played with standard EW (i.e. you either have it or don't), that make SAF's even more powerful (as high levels of enemy EW make them weaker).

The only rule which is perceived to be possibly ignorable (as some people don't like it) - is the Advanced Raid Rules (as both sides get to kill/cripple key hulls).

So, perhaps the only way we could not inadvertently slant the game is agree a points value to each add on rule, with a note saying the cost would need to go up/down if other rules were played.

Examples in the PO Rule Book

320 - Advanced Raids 0 pts

321 - MMG +2 Pts Coalition (makes bases weaker)

322- Tholian Pin Wheels +1 Pt Alliance

424 - Depot Repair Level +1 Pt Coalition

425 - CDR +3 Pts Coalition (more types of hulls)
425 - RCR +2 Pts Alliance

446 - Colonial Development +8 Pts Coalition

447 - ADS +3 Pts Coalition

448 - Transfering Provinces +1 Pt Coalition

449 - Trade with Wyn +4 Pts Coalition, +7 Pts Coalition if no Blockaid running (as it limits the Kzinti ability to us it)

450 - SER - Tough one allows the Alliance to get a cheaper shipyard up...but the Lyrans can crank out even more hills, +3 Pts Coalition

531 - Police Ships +8 Pts Alliance (+ 10 Pts if no Raids, Long Term Capture makes is +4/6 Alliance as Coalition can use it more then)

533 - Alternative Orion Pirates +2 Pts Coalition

534 - E & S - Another tough one +4 Pts Coalition ( + 8 Pts with Diplomacy)

535 - MegaFighters - 0 Pt (Possibly marginally pro Alliance but Different Fed MegaFighter counters makes them less flexible)

536 - FDU +2 Pts Coalition (+4 Pts with EWN)

537 - Resistance Movements +5 Pts Alliance

537.2 - Tug Rescue +2 Pts Coalition

537.3 - EWN +2 Pts Alliance

538 - Cloaked Decoys +8 Pts Coalition (effect far outweighs how often it is used)

Didn't amend the points to make them tally.... so my impression of PO is that is pretty pro Coalition!!

Perhaps Advanced Raids is Pro Alliance (2 Lots of Drone Empires v 1 - as PF's take a long time to come in) - but from what I have seen when it was used the Alliance lost key cripples and Special Aux Ships (Drone and Scout) - the Coalition lost FRD's!

So everyone - how 'off' on which rule benefits what side am?

If we do this - we would need to agree what rules are used...and then agree sides (possible bidding like I did with William?).

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 09, 2019 - 12:02 pm: Edit

well lol, according to the above im very pro-coalition although I see medium yards as pro alliance, for hydrans and kzinti especially (yes it does allow the lyrans more mid level hulls.).
wht I really need to do is find the whole rules and tell ya what I like and what I don't like. I think i'd prefer again to play coalition judging on the fact that you are far more experienced than I am from our 2nd game where I was getting caved in very easily
all is up for debate and discussion though.

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Saturday, March 09, 2019 - 09:57 pm: Edit

As a "rusticated" F&E player myself, I prefer not to piecemeal a laundry list of rule checkbox yes/nos; rather I prefer to group related rules and decide on all or nothing. For example, ground combat in general can be left out, which removes not only ships but MMGs, marine attacks, commando raids, etc. Omitting non-ship support units removes Prime Teams, ADMs, MMGs, and DIPs, as well as E&S missions. Having groups of similar rules makes the decision making simpler and perhaps fairer, which makes more sense (at least to me.)
On a side note, given the SAF commentary above, I think advanced EW needs to be included as a default in any non-vanilla game. It affects too many aspects of the game to leave it optional.
Just my two cents.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, March 10, 2019 - 04:38 am: Edit

Karl

Good idea - that might make it easier - and probably helps keep the balance.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Sunday, March 10, 2019 - 02:51 pm: Edit

yup I also agree, I don't particularly want the added headache of ground stuff, or police or diplomacy or raids but maybe that unbalances too much. chuck more peanuts from the gallery guys.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Sunday, March 10, 2019 - 02:55 pm: Edit

I do want colonies and shipyards and the advanced ew stuff strikes me as a must too. advanced combat table maybe. not keen on depot repair from what I remember reading, just makes more ships magically come back to life. open minded about salvage think that's a probably in favour for me (even though ive heard its pro alliance.). paul if you do play alliance we can always give the Hydrans and Kzinti a mothball (I know theres one for the Hydrans not sure on the cats.).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, March 10, 2019 - 04:33 pm: Edit

Once you get your set of the rules back - lets go through them.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, March 22, 2019 - 12:48 pm: Edit

hooray!. found my rules in the labrynthine shed I have. will look at them and chat about them soon.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 03:55 am: Edit

C/O . 311,313,443,444,513,516,517,519,531...not keen on other rules in C/O

S/O . 451, 452, 453,541, 542...not keen on other rules in S/O

A/O . everything but raids and admirals.

i'll look in the box and find P/O & F/O later today.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 07:46 am: Edit

C/O - Probably no need for 519 (Monitors) if no
Ground Attack Ships.

No SFG Ships perhaps is not quite a wash with no Police ships - so marginally Alliance benefit without them).

S/O - No Diplomacy - Not sure who benefits more from Diplomacy.

Engineer Regiments I feel with the Minor Ship Yards rule is very pro-Coalition - as the Lyrans use the Engineer Regiment to build Ships yards and they never have to overbuld again!!

(Alliance can build cheap PDU's - but there is no place the Hydrans and Kzinti can safely use it - but I agree the Feds would get value from Enginners)

A/O - I feel raids are pro-Alliance (as it can help stop long term capture occurring).

Admirals (the Basic rule - i.e. +1 ship) is slighty pro-Coalition as they are more likely to be able to use an extra hull and it weakens the proportional strength of bases.

OK on finding PO and FO

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 01:50 pm: Edit

I thought I left police ships in?. will get PO & FO out of the box after dinner and go through them

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 01:57 pm: Edit

I can certainly live without engineers. minor yards are a must for the Kzinti and Hydrans especially (off map.).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Jim

I suppose with Engineers they might get some value - but they just don't have enough Ep's to use them (accepting if the Hydrans have 617 and are cut off from OC, they may be able to use a Minor Yard)…

…..I really don't see them having much value

I suppose if the Kzinti keep 1401 for a while and they build some minor yards, they would then have the option of building the Medium Ship yard and save some Eps - but extra ships versus possibly saving afew Ep's - I know what I would prefer

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 03:09 pm: Edit

they don't have to be built in the capital paul so you can make the mediums/minor in the offmap right away and have at least something beyond ff's in the event Kzintai and/or Hydrax fall. unless my recall is way off.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Minor shipyards and engineers work well with the Hydrans who can then build a medium rather than a full ship yard, save 42 EPs and use those to build ships. You can finish the full shipyard later if you want to.

The Kzinti can do this too.

In the long run the alliance get more MSYs than the Coalition do.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Richard

Sorry I feel your missing the point in how two rules interact.

Yes,, the Kzinti and Hydrans might get some value in building a Medium Shipyard instead of a Major Ship Yard, due to not having enough Ep's to build a full production run.

However, the Minor Ship Yards will give the Lyrans say an extra FF Hull on turn 4 (at normal cost) and every turn thereafter.

And as they can use an Engineer to build a Minor Ship Yard, they can gain that hull for no additional cost.

And Engineers can't be used to build a Medium or Major Shipyard - so there is no cost deduction.

If the Off Map area counts as a 'Hex' (541.32), they can't be used to bud Minor Ship Yards once they have lost their capital either.

And I doubt the Kzinti would only be happy building BC and up size hulls (as they will need escorts) and 1 FF from the SB each turn, will not be enough.

So, yes, the Hydrans might find a Medium Ship Yard is better value, but the Kzinti will need a Full Ship Yard and so the Medium Ship yard might give them abit more flexibility if they can afford 8 Ep's a turn rather than 15 Ep's.

...but for me, I would much prefer to use the Lyran Eng to get a FF and CW slipway up and running and building 2 extra hulls for the bulk of the game.

Might even build a 2nd Eng to get a 2nd CW slipway!

Playing with just MSY's and NOT Engineers would perhaps make it closer on their value between the sides though!

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 04:57 pm: Edit

well, ive been sussed anyway, its the CW yards that would deffo be built if I was playing with either side they give the hydrans more hull options in the period after the capital falls (if it does) and the Lyrans are desparately short on med hulls the gorns also get some use out of them (med shipyards) but obviously they are later into the fighting. don't get me wrong but every empire who can SHOULD build the max med yards before they have their capitals taken or as soon as they can anyway to push out more hulls. if I could i'd build 20 of the things :P


EDIT well at least I hadn't read the rules when I made the above gaff.... I meant minor yards (since they get CW hulls.). my bad have the rules to hand now so before I was working from memory of a few months ago.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 05:35 pm: Edit

right then …

FO 437,438,440,515,518,527,532,549

PO 322,446,448,450, (not fussed.) 538.

all other rules not in the above are ones im not keen on playing but lets discuss from here

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 05:38 pm: Edit

You can't have a Medium Ship Yard until you have lost the Main Ship Yard.

(and in effect you build both the Medium and Major Yards at the same time - but only 1 can ever operate)

You can build the individual minor ship yards - which can add up to 9 Hulls for the Feds and Klingons - 6 Hulls for everyone else.

..and yes I agree, the Lyrans will love 2 CW Minor Shipyards!

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 06:53 pm: Edit

FF yard cannot be started until turn 4, first FF out will be on turn 6.

Engineers DO function offmap, just not at the offmap SB (if the capital is there) but can function at a major.

So Hydrans and Kzinti can get started with an Minor SY on turn 4 (I always do this).

Using deficit spending the Feds can start a bunch of minor SY once they're attacked, I do this too.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Richard, I cannot find where it says you have to wait until turn 4 to start minor yards obviously medium yards have to wait until you lose your capital shipyard.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Saturday, March 23, 2019 - 09:17 pm: Edit

paul, on turn one (A1) the Kzinti start minor yards in the barony on turn 3/4 the Hydrans do the same in the old colonies, why would either bother to do so on map is not clear to me but having two CW yards in the old colonies makes perfect sense and is a big plus for them likewise the CM yards for the Kzinti in the barony make great sense (more MEC's, or at least some, while the 'capital' yard is lost/being rebuilt.)