Archive through March 26, 2019
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
F&E Reports from the Front:
Inactive Scenarios:
Third Time Lucky:
Archive through March 26, 2019
according to the SIT, you cant start one till Y170
Hmmm, It might be more finding a 'spare' active tug/convoy/engineer to begin starting the yard
good point bill, thank you.
Yes, the SIT is where you get the date you can start them.
Stewart, I think it would be priority number one for the Hydrans and the Kzinti and the Lyrans and possibly the Klingons too. even if it means down subbing to be able to afford them.
so, @ Paul Howard, what do you think to the above set of rules, all the way through. do you want other rules?, or some taken way or..?
FO
437 - Other than the Gorns, a good Coalition rule
438 - Pro Coalition
440 - Neutral
515 - In effect now in 2010
518 - Modest Pro Alliance
527 & 532 - Was Pro-Alliance, but with so may special fighters, makes sustaining Fed Fighters far more difficult!
Why no 514 - Pro Coalition - but very late war?
Also 549?
Full Summary of PO done above, but
322 - No issues
446 - Large Pro Coalition
448 - Pro Coalition
450 - Massive Pro Coalition (just pro Coalition if no Engineers 
)
531 - Pro Alliance
Others are fairly 'minor', but 531 and 537 (possibly 449) are some of the balancing rules within PO (although on 449 my first thought it was pro-Coalition, the extra cash might help the Kzinti more).
I am worried that (in my very humble belief) is that their are far too many Pro-Coalition rules being used, without some of the balancing Pro-Alliance rules.
Perhaps the only way to balance it would be give the Alliance some option points - and they would need a lot (I would guess around 50)
Also, by using all the rule packages, but not all the rules, we might find there are other unforeseen consequences.
Instead of trying to add up the net pro/cons of rules for Coalition/Alliance, I tend to just go with the rules my opponent can agree to and suggest balance options to make up the difference.
That way one can get into a game faster instead of interminably arguing rules balance and such (which I've seen above rendered off balance by improper understanding of limitations of said rules).
C/O . 311,313,443,444,513,516,517,519,531...not keen on other rules in C/O
S/O . 451, 452, 453,541, 542...not keen on other rules in S/O
A/O . everything but raids and admirals.
.
FO 437,438,440,515,518,527,532,549
PO 322,446,448,450, (not fussed.) 538.
all other rules not in the above are ones im not keen on playing but lets discuss from here
so, that's the copy paste done, all of the above is what I want to play with. what im asking is do you think this is massively one sided and I have even gone on about balance points yet obv kzinti and hydran mothballs for sure. plus other alliance leaning pluses with a few coalition thrown in.
@ Richard, now I have my rules, I agree, im raring to go and get my F&E fix.
balances
ALLIANCE...
..
Federation (general choices) +4 C, +20 G, +5 H.
Kzinti (general choices) +4 C, +20 G, +5 H.
+5 A, +8 (x2)I, +4 (x4)J.
Gorn (general choices) +4 C, +20 G, +5 H.
+20 B.
Hydran (general choices) +4 C, +20 G, +5 H.
+5 A,+6 I,
Tholian +12 A
ALLIANCE TOTAL POINTS 176
COALITION...
..
Klingon (general choices) +4 C.
Romulan (general choices) +4 C.
+30 A
Lyran (general choices) +4 C.
+4 A.
COALITION TOTAL POINTS 46
Well it made me laugh.
Extra Reserves are pretty useless for the Hydrans and Kzinti - they generally don't have enough ships to fill out two reserves never mind three.
H - has no value for the Kzinti and as their is no Diplomacy income - the Hydrans, Feds and Gorns have no Eps to buy Command Points (as you only get the Free CP if your at War - so you would need to cancel production to generate the Eps).
And you give the Romulans 36 useable ships?
That would unbalance the game even more.
I would much prefer to say the Alliance has X points and can spend them either to boost the Alliance or weaken the Coalition.
If you wanted a few points (say 5) for each Nation and then gave the Alliance an additional X, that would be OK.
It's a long game, extra reserves for the Kzinti do help, a lot.
For the Hydrans, not so much.
Mothballs, the WYN thing with the Kzinti and lend-lease help in early turns (without being overwhelmingly good).
Richard
Hence - if the Aliance wants them - they use the Option points to get them.
No Wyn Support though - the General H is the ability to save Command Points while at peace and so absolutely useless to the Kzinti - unless the Lyrans don't invade on turn 1 (and no Lend Lease either as that is specific E).
The 2 CVL groups is useful (but without CEDS, not so beneficial now) and the CC's OK - but not much overall.
Alas I don't think there are no 'ooh I'll have that' buys for the Kzinti - the Hydrans and Feds do have some nice options though
Feds - 2 x B and A - 24 points
Hydrans - A ,D & I - 21 points
(D Allows for a much better turn 3 attack).
The Hydran E option is worth a gamble on perhaps - but it does make any turn 3 attack a lot weaker.
and Klingon Option H is worth the cost.
paul go through the rules I said assign points see where we are then we'll think about balance points then...sheesh 170 vs 46 I thought was fair.
Jim
To be fair yes, you are correct but everyone has different values for the Option points.
(And I afterwards noticed you didn't want to play with Admirals- and so if the Free Command Point accrues, the would get some value of the NTC's - but I don't think the NTC turns the free command point on - you only get it if at war?).
(I can see NTC's in the Free Campaign being useful as Nations may go to Peace and so will not want to lose Command Points).
What I was pointing out that of the 170 points - 100 of them possibly had no or reduced value.
(The Feds and Klingons would get value out of an additional reserve, the Lyrans and Kzinti (especially if thee have lost 1401) might get some value - but the rest don't build enough ships to efficiently using an additional reserve fleet).
And so rather than say the options don't look right, it's easier to give the Alliance X points and the Alliance player decides what they would like?
I'll look at the other rule packs tonight
paul I was trying to buff the smaller nations and not give the bigger (extra reserves for instance) ones much of anything except the Rom's getting more kestrels. I was copy pasting and so yes I agree kzinti getting ntc is STUPID. (oops.)
everyone gets the extra tugs which I think is a wash.
anyhow assign points when you are ready as I say I think minor yards help both sides fairly equally I know the Hydrans and Kzinti have trouble with cash but so do the coalition and the feds when they get in give the kzinti more of a boost than the lyrans give the Klingons and with more to spend on the lyrans will be giving the klinks less which has further implications. I included the basic police rule for the alliance which I think is a big plus point as are the cvl's and the dd's & ff's in the mothball
also, odd to see no comment on early Gorn CV's
C/O 311(Y),313(Y),443(Y),444(Y), 513(Y),516(Y),517 (Y),519 (Y), 531 (Y)...not keen on other rules in C/O
CO Looks pretty balanced - possibly slight pro-Alliance (As no Ground troops (I assume all G Ships are ignored) or SFG)
S/O . 451(Y), 452(Y), 453 (Y) ,541(*), 542(Y)...not keen on other rules in S/O
The Y's are pretty balanced.
A/O . everything but raids and admirals.
No Raids - Make it modestly Pro-Coalition
.
FO 437(Y),438(Y),440,515,518,527,532,549 -
I might be blind
.. whats 549?
No salvage (and the extra cash probably helps the Alliance more) - so Pro Coalition
PO 322(Y),446 (Y) ,448 (Y) ,450(**), (not fussed.) 538(N).
Of all the Packages, with just those 4 - I feel are still massively pro-Coalition.
I think Cloaked Decoys for their cost are not good for the game.
I agree though, Advanced Raids (as it creates weird situations) is safe to remove.
* - Engineers on their own I feel are a Modest Pro-Coalition benefit
** - Shipyards on their own I feel are a large Pro-Coalition benefit
Combined - they add a lot of ships to the Coalition and I am not convinced unless the Kzinti can build them for free (using the Eng), they have no value - as they just don' have spare Ep's.
Same thing for the Hydrans - but if they lost 617, it gives a reason not to rebuild a Medium or Major Shipyard!
Yep - Feds and Gorn can you use them, but Lyrans are the number 1 benefactor of the rule - by far.
(Safe area to build them AND surplus Ep's!)
So how about this - you pick the rules and which side you want to play - I state what Option points the Alliance has to spend?
Option 1
All the rules (without Advanced Raids and Diplomacy) :-
each Nation gets 5 Option points to spend (Tholians only have what the other Alliance members don't spend, upto a max of 5 points - so total is 20 v 15 Option Points)
Option 2
All the rules you would like marked Y : -
each Nation gets 5 Option points to spend (Tholians only have what the other Alliance members don't spend, upto a max of 5 points - so total is 20 v 15 Option Points) plus Alliance has 25 Option points
Option 3
All the rules you would like marked Y plus Normal Raids : -
each Nation gets 5 Option points to spend (Tholians only have what the other Alliance members don't spend, upto a max of 5 points - so total is 20 v 15 Option Points) plus Alliance has 15 Option points
Option 4
All the rules you would like marked Y plus Engineers : -
each Nation gets 5 Option points to spend (Tholians only have what the other Alliance members don't spend, upto a max of 5 points - so total is 20 v 15 Option Points) plus Alliance has 35 Option points (with raids, 25).
Option 5
All the rules you would like marked Y plus Engineers and Shipyards: -
each Nation gets 5 Option points to spend (Tholians only have what the other Alliance members don't spend, upto a max of 5 points - so total is 20 v 15 Option Points) plus Alliance has 55 Option points (with raids, 45).
Alliance player gets to elect to include Raids under options 2-5 (3 is shown to distinguish it)
Alliance can combine the 5 per nation with some of the Alliance pool (so with 20 Option points, the Kzinti could spend 15 and the Feds 15 for example).
Let me wash up - reply on the Gorn carriers and then re-read the option point/rules to make sure it makes sense to me - before you post a reply!
Re-read it
Exact points options are tough to gauge so summary
Major Pro-Coalition - P/O
Modest Pro-Coalition- A/O, F/O (just noticed didn't put Y down for all but the 549)
Minor Pro-Coalition -
Neutral - 2010 Rules, S/0*
Minor Pro-Alliance - C/O
* - Engineers and S/O combined make S/O Minor Pro-Coalition, as a BATS can be upgraded to a Sector Base and so makes them more cost effective!
So the Option Points seem reasonable.
So what does the Peanut Gallery think?
"So what does the Peanut Gallery think?"
I think y'all are putting way too much time into this aspect and should just go with something and start playing.
Richard
I would agree - but I can see some of the proposed rule inclusions/exclusions making a massive different - and by about turn 10 we would see it.
Kzinti income down (No Wyn trade or Salvage)
Hydran income down (no Salvage)
Lyran income Up (Colonial Development)
Extra Lyran ships....
..and Long Term Capture without Raids will give the Coalition even more money...
Game over.
549 is aux ships.
any option giving the feds extra ships is a big no-no for me (police ships is a major concession from my point of view as its gonna add another layer of omg.), seems like its the same with you and the kestrels. I still think being able to build HR's in the 6 turns before the new shipyard is up is agood thing for the hydrans. if they can manage to get two lines going before the capital falls its a good thing I know you are going to say about not being able to afford the hulls but that's play style. ive seen a lot of people churn out ff's (Hydrans specifcally although feds too (and klinks with e4's) for pin count. so I have to disagree with you on ship yards being a major pro coalition.the feds can easily be funding extra NCLs and the gorns would love more HDD's. remember the time the yards are ready to be used is turn 8 (turn four start and turn 7 finish) that gives the coalition just 7 turns before exhaustion hits. like a lot of things in the game its about timing (and as you taught me too about planning (kzinti counter attacks are nasty.)
im also not keen on any sort of raids let alone advanced ones again this is adding another layer of omg for me. (as in,I will totally forget about them.)
I kind of got the impression you didn't want engineers in?. im not fussed about them and if they give the kzinti something then im not bothered by that having already said I want both the hydran and kzinti to havemothballs (even the tiny ones that are in print). this from me wanting to playthe coalition.
on a side note it would be Klingon income up,not lyran from colonial development and probably Romulan too.
Will reply on the rules side later.. but I might be mad/blind/both -
I have Aux Ships in
CO - 513 - Aux Carriers (Plus Aux Troops ship's - can't see what rule number though).
AO - 317 - Aux Scouts
AO - 526.5 - Kzinti Drone
and there is Aux PFT Ships (526.4).
Can't see 549 anywhere (even checked for middle pages missing!!)