Jim

I totally agree - the Hydrans would love to build extra HR's if they get kicked off map - but I just don't see how they have the money - unless they only build Pin count (and that partially plans into the coalition plans).

17 plus 4-6 in new Off Map provinces is not much.

So 15 for the new Shipyard (or 8 for the Medium)…. 2.5 Ep's for the SB FF and 2 Eps in repairs so 12.5 Ep's at best spent.

A HR would be 8 Ep's (as no Free Fighters can be used until the Medium or Major Ship yard is completed) or you can spend 7 Ep's for the RN in the Guild Ship?

There just isn't the cash.

I think the Feds do need more help - as Dana and Ted's game shows - a strong early attack can gain a lot, which may or may not get the Coalition deep enough into Alliance territory (and with long term capture, making it easier to hold) to stop any Alliance counter attack.

Exhaustion - yep is relevant, but with Alliance territory, I don't think things will get tight until the 50% point - and then X-Income can help top it up.

I think Raids are need to help stop Long Term Capture - as otherwise it's far too easy for the Hydrans to get bottle up and half of Federation space will go the same way (hence why costing the Alliance 10 Option isn't cheap - as the Coalition can use it too (and the Romulans love Raids!).

Engineers - It just makes some things too cheap - you end up with a lot more PDU's and MB upgrades if not playing with Minor Ship yards....

….and your right - Klingon and Romulan income will be up....but the Lyrans start the ball rolling.

- which is part of the problem - the Lyrans have several areas they can develop safely the Klingons have some areas and gain a lot more safe areas when the Hydrans are under control and the Romulans have lots of safe places too.


Kzinti have Off map (2 or 3 CD's)
Hydrans have off Map (2 or 3 CD's)
Federation have some safe areas - but by mid game they will be threatened.
Gorns have some safe areas - but the war will be lost by the time they get they up ad running.

That's a lot of cheap income
Lyrans - Turn 4 1st CD comes on line and on turn 9 it becomes cost neutral (or less if you use Engineers!)

So by turn 10 say - the Lyrans could have +6 of safe Income.

Due to Exhaustion - value for Romulans (and Feds) will be lower, as they can't start them until turn 7 (at best) and 10 respectively.

To be honest - 2 or 3 is probably the maximum the Romulans will build - and the Feds probably not many more, depending on how it goes on map.

Will post a message when I am back in the office.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 04:46 am: Edit

Can't see 549 anywhere (even checked for middle pages missing!!)

page 27 FO

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 04:56 am: Edit

the hydran extra outriders give you faster province finding in the old colonies for the extra money. I totally get what you are saying they are cash strapped, but this is a choice of style.

fed's only go down to 75% from what I can see.


dana and ted play differently to me and you :P

although with experience I might be a bit more aggressive this game

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 04:58 am: Edit

Ok the Gorn carriers - too little, too late!

Allows the Gorn to probably build 15 more carriers in the game....at the cost of probably 10 overbuilt War Cruisers and 150 less Eps given to the Kzinti and Federatiion?

(As you still need to pay for the Fighters!).

...plus if you play with AO - the Gorns gain an Escort Carrier (and you can build an Escort Carriers above normal limits - 1 Main carrier and 1 escort carrier (from 176!)).

The extra cost is therefore not worth it!

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 05:00 am: Edit

whats the major sticking points,we should really sort this out and get playing ...skype conversation or phonecall?.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 05:26 am: Edit

549.0 is in FO 2015. If you have an earlier edition of FO you will not have it.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 10:01 am: Edit

Thanks Thomas - I have the 2004 version of FO.

Jim - 50 points may seem a lot - but it doesn't go that far.

For example, on the options points (includes the 5 for each nation)
(All Specific)

Federation - B x 2 (8)

Kzinti - A (5), I (4)

Hydrans - A (5), I (6)

Gorns - E (4)

Klingons - H (-20)

Would leave 18 points for other things!

But modest improvements for the Kzinti, Hydran and Federation - the turn 2 delay perhaps will give the Kzinti enough time to keep 1401..... if the Klingons want to go into the Feds on turn 7.

It probably also reduces the chance of a Hydran expedition.

On your 5am post - my concern is that the picking and choosing of rules unbalances the game - and some of them massively slant it.

Normal raids are needed to counter 438 in FO.

You give extra cash to the Coalition (Colonial Development) and take it away from both sides (Salvage).

All this has an effect on the game - hence by giving the Alliance Option points - it balances those things out (hopefully).

If you think the Option points are too much - play the Alliance

I think with the rules and X Points, it should be balanced.

...and as some of the Option points are a turn 1 effect, we do need to agree it before starting.

I am around tonight, tomorrow night and the weekend - wife isn't well at the moment and so shoving earphones on might not be the best idea though.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 10:39 am: Edit

colonial development is not one sided thing (again cash). salvage as William says just means less ship death. one of the reasons I do not want depot level repair either. anything that takes away the bloodiness is bad. what is making you think that ruleset is over balancing towards the coalition and remember im still a novice to this game. what im saying is assign points and let me see if I can live without them :P its not a problem unless its made into one is it.the ones I mentioned are ones i'd like to play, we do not have to play with all of them.

as I said before though Fed option A&B and Klingon H are no-no's for me.

the feds have a huge fleet with a lot to cover yes but unless you can stamp on that eco fast your doomed a bit like japan in 1942.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 11:48 am: Edit

Note that you CAN down sub an HR for an RN in the old colony shipyard (and then use free fighter factors) and only pay 5 EP (or 6EP for an NEC if available).

You can also substitute an LNH for the LN in the OC shipyard if I remember correctly, or build an LN and convert it to an LNH, and use free fighter factors for that. LNH-Vs are good buys as you don't have to pay the full double cost for all the fighters, and it's 13 compot (with fighters) which is good as Hydran carriers go.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 01:27 pm: Edit

or you can build TR's instead and pay less for FTRs for a CW hull

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Richard

You can - but it still doesn't mean you can afford to build a ship in the Guild Ship Yard... and CW from a Minor ship yard!

Jim - Old Ship Yard can't build Hellbore Armed ships - so your limited to the RN, HR (Sub from RN), LN or HN.

And for 2 ep's - the RN is far better value I think.

Money is the limiting factor.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Jim

The problem is - if you don't boost the Feds and the Coalition has so many other goodies - they will just get overrun.

A turn 7 invasion is very strong - Dana was unlucky not to get 3 SB's - and I can't remember if I got 2 or 3 against William in our original game (also a turn 7 invasion).

As it now takes 2 years for the Feds to get to nominal full production - I think they will be overran by then.

If you don't like Klingon H then - how about Kzinti H?

P.S. I would agree Federation A and 2 x B would be pretty evil though (although they would have to pay for all the ships in A - and extra 39 ships in option A is pretty good - but they have to be paid for).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 02:56 pm: Edit

On Rules

I don't think it's possible to easily allocate points to each rule - as the rule A may benefit one side abit - but when added with rule B, C and D it might become a lot more powerful.

Without using the Minor Ship Yard rule - the other easy example is the conversion during repair rule.

For example - You can convert 3 x D7's to 3 x D7C's for only 9 Ep's - using 1 SB (as each conversion) - under pre-2010 rules you might have saved 1 Ep - but each SB could only do 1 conversion a turn..... now you can get 3 done!

So - the Conversion During Repair rule has got a lot better because of another change.

So, would it be easier to play with just 2010, CO, AO, FO (each in full)?

I think FO is pro-Coalition - but with Carriers a lot weaker, the ability to upgrade all those Klingon Carriers is weakened.

CO I think is balanced and AO is close enough I think.

Raids don't slow the game down much!

We could still include a small number of option points for each nation if you wanted but it avoid assigning values to rules which may have a variability!

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 03:44 pm: Edit

The Hydran off map income is generally enough (pre exhaustion) to produce a turn of medium ship yard, build an FF at the SB, a ship from the OC shipyard, and a CW hull. The cost of that is 8 + 2.5 + ~5-6 + 5 = 20-22ish, plus fighters (possibly paid for by the OC SY free fighter production).

The Hydrans also get one free PG? hull a year, which is nice. I generally go for the 4 allowed PGVs, maybe doing a survey PG hull if I think it's a good idea (before all PGVs are built). After that, PGCs are probably the way to go, can't hate free 10 compot ships that are BG eligible.

Good use of depot can reduce the cost of repairs (one can be patient and not pay for repairs except when an opportunity to harm the Coalition shows).

Offmap income is a base of 17 plus exploration, colonies, guild treasury and possibly a little bit of on map income and maybe 5 EP from high risk survey at times.

On top of that you may have leftover treasury and salvage.

Speaking from experience, I've always had enough EPs with the Hydrans to build in this manner.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Richard - all good points.

But we probably are not going to use Depot Level Repair .... (I think it hurts the Coalition just as much as the Alliance - but the pain is spread across all of the Coalition v just the Kzinti and Hydrans).

The OC Ship yard Free Fighters can only be used on ships built in it - or the unique first IC - so over 18 turns you get 18 Fighters...which magically is enough for 1 x LN and 4 x RN.... (or was until they added the half factor to the RN - but it does mean all but the last RN will have free fighters if you don't build the IC).

The question is do you want the Medium Ship Yard, 6 TR's and 12 Ep's or the Major Ship Yard?

Unless you build Frigate Slip ways, you will not be able to build enough small ships

Once up and running, 30 Eps per turn (more off map Provinces etc) is enough for a CV, 3 x NEC and 6 x CUs a year (which is 52 Eps) plus Ep's for repairs with a major ship yard..... or the CV, RN, DG, HR, TR and 2 CU is 50.5 Ep's with a Medium Ship Yard and CW Slip Way.

So do you want 12 Eq's v 10 Eq's (and the CV will run out of heavy escorts - yes you can convert the HR or/and TR to a NEC - but that's up to 5 more Eps).

Sounds like I need to write up a Tactic Note - Major Yard or Nothing!

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 06:17 pm: Edit

With ENGs, FF shipyards are free.
You can down sub hulls built in medium shipyards if you want to, to get smaller hulls, if you like.

You can down sub using DW shipyards to make FFs if you want too (pretty sure).

Anywho, I have found the medium ship yard to be quite useful for the Hydrans, 42 EPs saved will definitely help up your ship count.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Tuesday, March 26, 2019 - 07:42 pm: Edit

paul,surely the cvl's and the 'reserve' marker and the mothball help the Kzinti enough (we could always double the mothball too since its tiny (same with the Hydrans.).).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, March 27, 2019 - 03:20 am: Edit

Richard

Shipyards and Engineer are pretty confusing.

Conversion Facilities appear to be required to Down Sub Hulls (It refers to Major and Minor conversion facilities and then say "Either can make a double conversion within its limits and use downsized substitutions".

So you would need both a CW Shipyard and a Minor Conversion Facility to build a HR/TR or CU/HN.


541.32 - I'll see if the Engineer Regiment can operate in an Off Map Area which contains the Capital - I am guessing it can't (on the basis it will not work in any of the Gorn or Romulans Capitals).

i.e. while the Hydrans own 617 they can use the Eng to build Facilities in the Old Colonies, but if 617 is lost I don't believe (but might be wrong) they can.

Jim

If you think it's enough - play the Alliance

I feel 100% those benefits are not close enough to balance the game.

The time problem is - I think it will take 10-15 turns to show the Alliance is pushed too far back - in other words, the Coalition will appeal to just be doing slightly better than normal - and then they will sustain that and the Alliance will not be able to counter attack.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, March 27, 2019 - 03:59 am: Edit

You do not need a conversion yard to downsize, nor is an ENTIRE offmap area considered a capital for purposes of disallowing engineer discounts.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, March 27, 2019 - 05:42 am: Edit

Will post a question on Engineers.

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Thursday, March 28, 2019 - 07:57 am: Edit

we could of course add the fed ships AND the Romulan kestrels......

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, March 28, 2019 - 09:46 am: Edit

Richard

When I re-read Shipyards - Downsizing was in the Conversion Shipyards section not Minor Shipyard section - where do you think it says Minor Shipyards can down sub the extra hulls?

Off Map - that gets even more complicated due to Hexes, Locations and rule limitations

Jim - That doesn't solve the problem and clearly adding 12 ships to the Feds and IIRC 36 ships to the Romulans would unbalance the game further

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, March 28, 2019 - 10:27 am: Edit

You are mistaken, the rule (450.12) does not cover just conversion yards, it covers many things. It does explicitly state that you could produce a Lyran DD in place of a lyran CW. This is not a conversion, this is a substitution.

Conversions have nothing to do with substitutions. Before arguing further, I suggest that you find an actual rule that explicitly says otherwise (which I contend that you won't because there is no such rule).

I cannot recall if you can do ANY downsub, there IS a rule that says you can't do substitutions (generally) in rule 450.14. I think there's a fair possibility that you cannot (for instance) sub an E4 for an F5 in an F5 minor shipyard. Essentially, perhaps the intention is that you can only down sub a hull if that said hull is convertable into the ship the MSY normally produces, ie Hydran or Lyran FF to DW, but not Klingon F5 (or E4) for D5. But I could be wrong on this last part, it might be answered in Q&A but I don't recall seeing this explicit point there.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, March 28, 2019 - 07:18 pm: Edit

The Lyran DD for a CW in the Lyran CW Shipyard is probably considered to be a downsub. The only other one that I know of that comes close is the Gorn DD at a Gorn MSY-DW (BD hull).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, March 29, 2019 - 03:29 am: Edit

Found it.

450.18 Variants.

"Minor Shipyards can build any ship of the base hill type... but cannot do substitutions of other hull types.."

The only permitted substitutions are variants within the overall limit - so you can sub a D5S or D5D for a D5 (within the overall limit), but can't sub a FF for a DW.

So a Minor Shipyard can build a single defined Hull class(450.18), but a Minor Shipyard with a Conversion Facility CAN down sub (450.12).