No. Conversion facilities have nothing to do with down subs (or substitutions of any kind).

The rule I listed above(450.12) is more specific than 450.18) and states by example that you can do substitutions such as a DD for a CW in a minor shipyard. It does not state that you need a conversion yard to do so.

Rule:
There is nothing in this rule to stop a Conversion
Facility from making a double conversion, nor is there
anything stopping you from using (450.4) to produce a
Lyran DD in a Lyran CW shipyard.

Note that this rule does NOT link the use of a conversion facility to the desire to produce a DD in a Lyran CW shipyard. This rule lists two separate points that are not related to each other (ie that this rule 450.12 does not prevent you from doing double conversions at a conversion facility and separately also states that this rule does not prevent you from doing a Lyran DD instead of a CW at a CW shipyard).

You may of course play the game however you want if your opponent agrees, but if not, I highly recommend you take this point to Q&A if you and your opponent do not agree.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, March 29, 2019 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Richard

I think I might know why we are discussing this..

Which 'version' of PO do you have?

I have the 2004 original print.. (and as I found out, FO was reprinted which introduced new rules!)…. and so I am guessing new wording was added to Minor Shipyards in the newer version..as my 450.12 does not have the wording you have quoted!?!

450.18's example in my copy is "so a Federation NCL yard could not produce destroyers or old light cruisers".

Hence the confusion

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 29, 2019 - 02:34 pm: Edit

The source is originally from (apparently) the 6/30/7 errata file.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, March 29, 2019 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Had a look and used the search function and nothing (other than your above entry) came up.

Does anyone have the PO Errata file?

Jim - Which version of the rules do you have?

From front to back, my rules are : -

F&E 2010 - Copyright 2010
CO - Copyright 2003
AO - Copyright 2003
FO - Copyright 2004
PO - Copyright 2004
SO - Copyright 2006

Thanks

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 29, 2019 - 03:55 pm: Edit

It can be found in these forums in a big block of errata at

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/19859.html?MondayMarch0320080825am#POST622744

By jim howard (Noseybonk) on Friday, March 29, 2019 - 04:15 pm: Edit

the only difference I have on you paul is FO2016

By A. David Merritt (Adm) on Friday, March 29, 2019 - 04:43 pm: Edit

FO2016 was an updated release to match F&E2010, not merely a reprint.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, March 29, 2019 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Well that confuses me even more.

Shipyards - Builds ships and Sub variants of that hull

Conversion Yards - Permits Conversions and Substitutions.

450.18 Even states no Subs to other hull sizes.

So I suppose the question is - why the change, as there doesn't seem to be a question or issue raised on it?

It also seems to take away the value of Minor Conversion Facility?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 29, 2019 - 06:19 pm: Edit

Conversion yards DO NOT permit substitutions. Having one or not having one does not do anything to substitutions. They have nothing to do with substitutions at all.

Where are you getting it that they do? Because I think you are confused.

***

Also, 450.18 does NOT state no subs to other hull sizes. You won't find those words there, go look again.

I imagine that the subbing a DD for a CW thing is allowed because the DD is sort of the same base hull as a CW, ie if you are already building all (most) of the parts for a DD when making a CW, you could just stop at the DD. :p

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, March 30, 2019 - 07:07 pm: Edit

(450.18) - ' … but cannot do substitutions of other hull types.' So Lyran CW minor shipyards cannot do DD downsubs (or DW yard for Lyran or Hydran FFs, the bridging element is just that important) …

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, March 30, 2019 - 08:02 pm: Edit

However, errata which is more specific says that they can substitute (example given) a DD for a CW, mentioned previously in this discussion multiple times.

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 09:48 am: Edit

Perhaps this should be clarified with a Q&A, but it looks like everyone here at least has a point. 450.12 is confusingly written, specifically the line that mentions substitutions in the same sentence as conversion facilities doing two step conversions (which is where the idea that conversion facilities are required for substitutions probably cones from.)
450.18 is the rule that minor shipyards only produce hulls and variants of their type. It gives the example that a Fed NCA shipyard specifically cannot build a CL or DD, suggesting that substitutions are not allowed.
The errata Richard linked further specified that Lyran DD sub for CW was allowed in a CW shipyard, citing 450.4 which is the list of allowable downgrade substitutions. It would seem that a minor shipyard could sub for any allowed substitution (450.4) based on the shipyard hull. On this, notably the Lyran DD is an allowable sub for the CW; by the same token a Fed CL is NOT an allowable sub for a NCL.
The only problem is, a Fed DD is an a allowable sub for an NCL. Which means that the example given in 450.18 contradicts the expanded rule of 450.12. So what's right?

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 11:02 am: Edit

This was resolved in Q&A.

The difference is that (setting aside MSYs), you can convert a Lyran DD to a CW, while you cannot convert a Fed DD to an NCL. The ruling essentially states that this is the controlling factor.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Basically Lyrans and Gorn get better shipyards than everybody else....not sure the Lyrans needs better shipyards, but the ruling has been made.

I don't understand the techno babble and as it stands and as re-mentioned by Karl - the whole rule is full of contradictions

It does mean though I can see the Lyrans building all 6 minor slipways, so ultimately they can build 4 x FF and 2 x DW's in additional to their normal build schedule at (down subs FF's for DW an DW's for CW's) - so 18 EP's for 6 hulls late war is probably affordable and 23 Ep's for 6 (2 x FF, 2 x DW and 2 x CW) Hulls is affordable just prior to exhaustion!

Lots of cheap pin count.

Gorns lack ships (and have the cash) so they probably will not need to downsub at all.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 01:18 pm: Edit

There's no technobabble, it's a clear concept as spoken in the ruling.

The ruling lists some Lyran and Gorn down subs but also states that the list is not exhaustive. You could downsub a Kzinti FF in a Kzinti FFK yard, for example, though it is not listed.

Essentially, if you can:
convert a smaller ship A into a larger ship B,
THEN
you can substitute A in a minor shipyard that normally produces B.

If a given ship A cannot be converted into a larger ship B,
THEN
you cannot substitute A in a minor shipyard that normally produces B.

So, for example, you cannot convert a Fed DD into a Fed NCL, so you cannot sub a Fed DD in a Fed NCL minor shipyard.

With no offense, the rules for F&E are complex in places, much more so occasionally (see retreat priorities), this is a simple concept, at least in comparison.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Paul,

How do you get 4xFF, 2xDW? The Q&A ruling clearly says the DW yard can build FF hulls and the CW yard can produce DD hulls.

At best you get 4xFF and 2xDD but that costs the same as 4xFF and 2xCW and the CW is a way better ship.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Ryan

As 450.4 (page 14 of PO) states you can sub "DW for NCA or CW."

Hence my confusion.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Yes, but the ruling says that you can only sub a DW for a CW in a minor shipyard IF you can convert a DW to a CW, which you cannot. So you cannot sub it in a minor shipyard.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 03:06 pm: Edit

What Richard said.

You can do that sub off your regular production schedule, but not in the MSSY. Yes, I know it can be confusing.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 03:17 pm: Edit

I think that hits the nail on the head!

MSSY can't do substitutions which change the basic hull size … unless it can be converted into the original hull.

But lets see if I have now got this right - if you have a Ship Slip way and a Minor Conversion Facility at the same location, you can use 450.12 (last but one sentence) to use 450.4 - which would allow the Lyrans to produce a DW from a CW ship way?

Or is the phrase 'downsized substitutions' in effect the Lyran FF/DW DD/CW (and Hydran, Gorn equivalents) ruling?

Thanks

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 04:01 pm: Edit

No. You do not need a minor conversion facility at all to construct a substituted ship.

Also, note that a minor shipyard is called a minor ship yard, and not a Ship Slipway. Considering the amount of confusion that has been shown in this discussion, it is probably best to use the proper terms if we can.

The phrase 'downsized substitution' encompasses more than the ruling for minor shipyards.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 04:05 pm: Edit

To be clear, you can do any 'downsized' substitution at a normal shipyard but are limited to those mentioned in the ruling when using minor shipyards.

Do note that conversion facilities have nothing at all to do with substitutions. Their presence or absence does not affect the allowance or dis-allowance of a substitution at any sort of shipyard.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 04:06 pm: Edit

No the Minor/Major Conversion facility allows you to take any ship and convert it to something else, as provided in the SITs.

A conversion facility could take a CW built in a CW Minor Shipyard and convert it to an NCA or NCA variant. It could also convert the CW into a CW variant but you could have just built it as the variant.

The Conversion yard or conversion at a SB cannot convert a CW into a DW. Only a CW to a SIT allowed conversion.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Sorry Ryan and Richard - but that's not what the rule says.

The last three sentences of 450.12 state (third one included but not relevant) :-

"The Major Conversion Facility can perform one major (or minor) conversion (which must be paid for, but without the penalty) and the Minor Conversion Facility adds the ability to make such a conversion, but neither can produce ships. Either can make a double conversion within it's limits and use downsized substitutions (450.4). Minor shipyards of a given type cannot be converted or upgraded to any other type."

So why is there the reference to downsized substitutions?

(For clarity, I have PO 2004).

Richard - Slipways to me makes it's clear it is for building ships - as MSSY's covers both Shipyards (building) and Shipyards (conversions and in my rulebook substitutions). Saying Shipyards to cover both I think has aided the confusion

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 01, 2019 - 05:34 pm: Edit

Slipways isn't defined in F&E, one should avoid using the term imo.

That line about substitutions is not in my copy of the rules; it was removed, most likely because you can't substitute a ship when you can't build one (which your quote does say).

I'd think common sense would lead to that conclusion, but I know better so I won't say that. :p