AT24

Our first batch of combats are winding up.

There are three protracted fights going on over planets 1105, 1506, and 3509, all are 3 or 4 rounds in already, seeing small escorts and fighters/PFs blowing up regularly, but nothing super interesting died yet.

The Hydrans recaptured 2 planets (0519, 0718) but were chased off of 0416. The Hydrans are all over the place (including 4 ships currently out of supply on planet 0718). It will be interesting to see what they do in retrogrades.

The Kzintis retook planets 1504 and 1802, and are fighting over 1105 and 1506. They have a *lot* of fighters and carrier groups, so those fights could go for a while.

The Klingons saved planets 2106 (with a reserve) and 2306 (by scaring away a big Fed fleet with X ships). 3DX were on the line, none got killed, the Feds ran.

The Feds are fighting a protracted fight vs the Romulans over planet 3509 that is 4 rounds in currently; Romulans have an edge in fighters, ships, and compot, but the Feds have the EW advantage, so about a wash.

So far over 30 ships (mostly various FFs) have been vaporized, and plenty of combat to go.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, May 04, 2019 - 09:03 am: Edit

AT24

The first round of combats is over, resolving 28 some odd combat hexes (including 2 fighting retreats over small groups of ships that ended up in a bad area, poor guys).

The Kzinti are pretty scary at this point, due to their +1 die roll fast drone bonus.

As of press time, the Coalition have lost 28 ships, mostly FFs (and a not insignificant number of PFs) as well as taking a bunch of cripples; the Alliance have lost 26 ships, also mostly FFs.

There are still 8 combat hexes to go, including two potentially exciting fights--the Tholian fleet attacking Klingon planet 2518 (where the Tholians vastly outnumber the two dozen defending Lyrans, but the fixed defenses make it likely damaging. The Tholians can probably take it if they are brave) and the Gorn possibly trying to retake planet 4705.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, May 04, 2019 - 01:24 pm: Edit

AT24

So far this turn, the Alliance have been rolling the heck out of the Coalition, averaging 3.9 over 32 rolls, vs the Coalition's 2.9 (and then the Kzinti get the +1 on top of that). On the upside, nothing real terrible has happened as a result; the Coalition tend to have higher compots (sometimes significantly higher, like a few rounds that were, like, 127 vs 95) so the damage disparity isn't that big, and most of the time, we are just killing escort frigates and then attrition units soak up the balance.

The Alliance rolling well has meant that the Coalition have been taking cripples on top of the dead escorts, and have been losing PFs that need replacing (so far this turn, 10EPs of PFs have gone down).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 05, 2019 - 07:21 pm: Edit

AT24

A few more fights are done; in Gorn space, the Gorn recaptured capital hex 4403 (that poor SEH new the risks when he joined this outfit!) and were repulsed from Rom held planet 4705, who killed a couple cripples in pursuit in exchange for a mauler at the hands of the DNT.

2 more fights to resolve this turn; the Alliance are currently fighting the Romulans over planet 3706, and the Tholians won the approach at planet 2518, and are trying to figure out if they want to go attack the PDUs.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, May 05, 2019 - 07:42 pm: Edit

Two Five One Eight

Spindle, fold

and mutilate!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 - 05:21 pm: Edit

AT24

Combat is over!

In Hydran space, the Hydrans took back two planets, lots of space.

In Kzinti space, they took back 2 planets, lots of space.

In Fed space, they took back 4 planets, lots of space.

In Gorn space, they took back capital hex 4403, some provinces.

The Tholians attacked Klingon planet 2518, killing 2PDU before being chased off.

Ships Killed:
-LYR: DWE, 2FFE, 7FF, (FF)
-KLI: D5, 2F5E, 7E4
-ROM: FHF, K5D, BH, SKE, SK, 3SEE, 4SEH, K4

-ZIN: CL, FFK, 11FF
-HYD: CU
-FED: NCL, 12FF
-GRN: 3DD, (BD, DD)
-THA: NCL, PCE

So 34 dead Coalition, 34 dead Alliance, for 68 dead ships this turn. New maximum death total!

Retrogrades, etc. to follow.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, May 08, 2019 - 08:27 pm: Edit

AT24

Towards the end of the turn, the Alliance started rolling badly relative to the Coalition, but still ended up ahead of the Coalition, with an average of 3.71 for the turn, with the Coalition making it up to an average of 3.05 for the turn.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, May 09, 2019 - 07:06 pm: Edit

"So 34 dead Coalition, 34 dead Alliance, for 68 dead ships this turn. New maximum death total!"

And this isnt looking at how many PFs and fighters were destroyed as well !

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, May 09, 2019 - 08:30 pm: Edit

Nasty! Lots of Pow-Pow!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, May 09, 2019 - 08:30 pm: Edit

Infinite fighters exploded. I think a total of 25 individual, ship mounted PFs exploded (the Klingons paid $9 for PF replacement, the Lyrans paid $1.5, but also used up the last 4 loose PFs in the pool). And then 6PFs blew up at a Klingon planet 'cause their PDUs were killed.

Like, I know that PFs are just as efficient as even compot ships at taking damage (i.e. 8 damage on an 8 compot cruiser absorbs 8 damage and costs 2EPs to repair; 8 damage on 4 individual PFs absorbs 8 damage and costs 2EPs to replace), but for most of the war, the Coalition did just fine taking damage on fighters, and now they are taking damage on PFs, which costs them money. I like the increased compot, but I'm not yet fully convinced that taking damage on them is a good idea...

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, May 09, 2019 - 10:07 pm: Edit

Peter, taking damage on anything that has to be repaired or replaced is a bad idea. However, it can't be helped. You just have to decide what the pain threshold is for you.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, May 10, 2019 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Well, yes. It's the trap of "I can use PFs and have a crazy compot, but then have fewer fighters on the line..."

Which, now that I can make crazy PF lines on the regular, and have been using them a lot, I'm all "Huh. This might not be the best course of action in reality".

Taking 18 damage for free on fighters with 100 compot is generally (most of the time) probably a better plan than taking 6 damage for free and 12 damage on a flotilla of PFs with 112 compot.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, May 10, 2019 - 07:17 pm: Edit

It is a matter of case by case analysis.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Friday, May 10, 2019 - 10:54 pm: Edit

in y180, 112 compot is unremarkable, so of course you're going to feel the lack of damage absorption. DWB is probably the minimum support id have for two squadrons of PFs in any sort of balanced fleet concept.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 09:58 am: Edit

Chris wrote:
>>in y180, 112 compot is unremarkable, so of course you're going to feel the lack of damage absorption.>>

Those were just random, non specific numbers (involving the difference between 18 fighters and 6 fighters/24PFs). But in general, even in y180, a line of ships with 18 fighters and nothing else particularly unusual going on (i.e. not a bunch of X ships or drone bombardment), 100 compot is about regular for the West side of the galaxy; turn 2 squadrons of fighters into PFs, and that becomes about 112.

>> DWB is probably the minimum support id have for two squadrons of PFs in any sort of balanced fleet concept.>>

I have no idea what you mean by "DWB is probably the minimum support".

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 11:03 am: Edit

(and by "6 fighters/24PFs", I clearly mean "6 fighters/12PFs".)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Peter;

Aren't "Interdiction Carriers" in F&E? That would allow 6 additional fighter factors, which your numbers above don't seem to include.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Yes. Interdiction carriers exist. They were just ballpark numbers for example. Yes. You can have 24 fighter factors on the line if you use an interdiction carrier in the mix.

That doesn't change the basic point--if you are replacing fighter squadrons with PF squadrons, your compot goes up, but you are then spending money to take damage on attrition units instead of not. Which has trade offs.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Saturday, May 11, 2019 - 11:40 pm: Edit

peter

the klingon heavy scout carrier is what i meant. i think it's a generally amazing ship, and i also think that 3 EW and 8 fighters is probably enough damage absorption capability that you can get greedy for pure compot and have two squadrons of PFs.

...

that's not available to build per the rules for this game, is it? :/

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 12, 2019 - 08:36 am: Edit

Ah, ok; yeah, that is outside of the realm of the rules we are using (2K10+CO+FO+AO).

Like, there are plenty of ships around and plenty of fighters around for making all sorts of crazy lines at this point in the game (about to start Fall y180), although as of press time, there are only, what, 6 total X ships on the map. The Lyrans can easily put together lines of 120+ without even trying hard (DNP+some BCHs+some CV group and some PF flotilla); the Alliance still tend to hover around 95-100 compot (they don't have PFs or 3rd Way yet) still with generic lines (by which I mean "a line of carriers where the only thing you can shoot is a small escort or maybe a CW in a BG" kinda line, which is what most lines tend to be most of the time, unless something special is going on).

Like, at this point in the game, where most fights are pretty much pure attrition with a minor goal--like, "The Klingons have 40 ships holding a devastated planet; the Feds send 80 ships to go take it back; the Klingons can't realistically keep the planet even if they want to, so they'll fight until they think it is a bad idea" or "The Lyrans have 100 ships holding a devastated planet; the Kzinti send 100 ships to fight. The Lyrans probably won't get chased off, so the Kzinti will fight, trading FFs and fighters for likely bigger ships and the occasional cripple till they run out of full carrier groups and then they'll leave"--in fights like that, replacing the fighter squadrons with PFs gives significantly more compot, but then I end up spending money to replace PFs when the Kzinti roll well, or whatever.

In fights where there are specific objectives (kill a base, chase off opposition, get through approach, whatever), yeah, lots of PFs for compot are likely a good plan a lot of the time. But in general back and forth attrition, more than 1PF flotilla on the line (and then 2 fighter squadrons) is probably optimal; making more heavy fighters is also probably a good idea (heavy fighters fall behind when PFs come out, as they use the same production slots, but now that there are a lot of Coalition PFTs, I might very well restart the heavy fighter carrier production schedule again; the biggest problem with that is that the ruleset we are using only has kind of weak 8H carriers for the Coalition, but putting independent 8H on the line is often solid).

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, May 13, 2019 - 05:47 am: Edit

I just found another battle. My SCS is trying to take back 2610. So we are going to have at least a few more dead ships.

As for Compot, the Alliance almost never has over 100 Compot. 3 carrier groups with FF as the outer escort, then either an NCL or FF as the final ship.

Even over 2610 my line is: DNG(adm), [SCS+2xHDW-E+2xFF], [3xNCL, 3xFF], NCL, 2xE2C, TG(SP)

So its not massive.

But also, Im hardly losing anything in terms of cost.

Peter has 18 fighters and zero PFs. I have 48 fighters. So he is going to have to take a hammering to hang on to the planet.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, May 13, 2019 - 10:32 am: Edit

Assume 25% is a typical damage value after EW and other effects and assume all fighters on the line will be used to absorb damage.

Then replacing 12 fighters with 24 PFs does about 3 additional damage to the enemy at the cost of needing to absorb 12 additional damage on non-fighters. And if the additional damage is absorbed by the PFs, that's at the cost of 6 EP for 3 damage done.

PFs are great on defense, where they are in addition to base/PDU fighters rather than instead of. PFs can also be a good deal if that ~3 extra damage lets you win an approach battle or kill one more PDU or direct a good target or whatever. They're fine if you are running out of fighters and still want to win the hex. But for random battles in open space, not so much.

Edited to add: Another spot where PFs are good is in cases where you know that the opponent wants to direct something else, you have a mauler on the line for example and he's directing all maulers. If you had 18 fighters, it's unlikely that you'd have 18 damage to absorb with fighters, so you might as well use the PFs.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 13, 2019 - 11:56 am: Edit

12 damage on PFs cost 3 ep to replace, not 6 ep.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, May 13, 2019 - 03:44 pm: Edit

AT24

This just in! As noted, we missed a fight somehow; a Fed armada of about 60SEQ (including the scary SCS) vs a Klingon force about half as big, holding planet 2610. I can't imagine this fight will last real long.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, May 13, 2019 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Douglas, also remember having much bigger lines ensures I never put anything important on the line, so it keeps me at a much lower Compot.

And choosing a lower BIR.