I was thinking about the Tholian "problem". There is no incentive for the historical limited campaign against the Tholians so they are either ignored and the Tholians blow up everything in range or the Tholians are wiped out in one turn. This is how my games have gone in any case.

Here is an optional rule that provides an incentive for the historical less costly limited campaign against the Tholians.

The Tholians have six bases total (three on each side of their capitol). The Tholians start out able to operate up to six hexes out of their territory. For each of their bases destroyed this decreases by one hex. If all six of their bases are destroyed they are entirely restricted to their space. Having a base reinstalled in one of these hexes (including a mobile base) reextends the range. This only applies once the base is set up (i.e. not the turn the tug moves out to build it and it is still being set up).

The current expeditionary fleet continues to operate as an exception to these rules. I toyed with the idea of saying the expeditionary fleet does not happen at all if all six bases are destroyed (as the Tholians would undoubtedly be very cagey if the starbases were gone too) but I am unsure on that. Thoughts?

This becomes a balancing act for the Alliance player. The Coalition will almost certainly at least knock out the border BATS to limit Tholian range to its current normal operating range and the Tholians will want to make it hurt to take them but if the Tholians wreck too much of their fleet guarding the border the Coalition will just take the capitol with relative ease. The option to do a full court press and annihilate the Tholians is still an option but leaving them entirely alone will result in Tholians being able to hurt a lot of their economy (including captured Fed territory).

It seems to me it fits with the historical mindset and also matches the SFB scenario where the Tholians switch to an aggressive defense by reestablishing their border bases late in the war. It gives them an incentive to put their bases back and an incentive for the Coalition to stymie such an effort. This also gives the Selts something to do when they show up.

This change is pro-Alliance. I thought about compensating by forcing other Alliance members to send ships to Tholian space if the Tholians lose a certain numbers of bases (presumably the historic Kzinti and Gorn) but that rule is difficult to enforce as the Coalition may well have cut off their ability to get there. Maybe it only applies if there is a valid strategic movement route to get there? It could lead to a cynical Coalition player making sure there is a strategic movement path there to tie up Kzinti and Gorn ships. Good thing or bad thing?

Thoughts and/or Criticisms?

(Message moved to this topic. -FEDS)

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 - 04:58 pm: Edit

This is not needed in my opinion, there are already strong incentives (rewards) for attacking the Tholians if you can spare the ships, such as victory points, a large economic reward, and strategic level improvements to the Coalition position on the map.

If you cannot spare the ships without causing disaster elsewhere on the maps, then adding more incentive is probably not helpful.

In addition, the idea that the Tholians will be able to operate up to six hexes out of their territory is not realistic. Historically, the Tholians were only concerned with defense and did not begin to have enough ships to attack a neighbor. The existing Tholian expeditionary rules are sufficient for limited strikes by the Tholians if they wished to do so (presuming that they thought attacking a neighbor would be a good idea at all, which with one known exception prior to the general war, they did not).

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 12:07 pm: Edit

There is an incentive for a full attack but not for a limited one and this rule would not require nearly as many ships (especially lost ships) as would wiping the Tholians out.

I also disagree with the idea that the Tholians would only act on the defensive no matter what. While historically this is true outside of their one raid to acquire disruptor tech the Tholians may be paranoid but they are not fools. If the Tholians are still around when they "activate" for the Alliance and the game is still going the Coalition is probably winning at that point. The Klingons and Romulans have large tracts of Federation territory, the Hydran capitol is taken and the Kzinti capitol is either taken or under threat and the Tholians have to know that if the Federation surrenders or comes to terms that the survival time of the Holdfast can be measured in months. Why not raid further out and try to unbalance the Coalition? If they see it as the best course of action to survive they would do it even if they were unhappy with it; the same way they knew acquiring disruptor tech was vital to their survival. Historically they did not raid or go on the offensive because they were under attack themselves.

My thoughts on the matter anyways.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 05:17 pm: Edit

One question you have to ask of the Tholians is, (and bear with me here), "Do the Tholians exist in a real universe, or in a game universe?"

In a 'game universe', the Tholians know that they can move six hexes, hit the enemy, take casualties, retrograde back to home territory, replace fighters and even field repair if necessary, all before the coalition can come in to attack their bases and capital.

In a 'real universe', the Tholians know that the moment they send out their fleet, the coalition could have spotted them and countered by moving in and destroying their homeworld while the fleet is away. This would greatly reduce their willingness to risk moving their fleet far outside their own territory, and thus would explain the 2-hex limit.

Now obviously, the universe is to be considered 'real', but if the game mechanics are actually a realistic representation of how quickly the coalition could react to sightings of movement of large Tholian fleets, confirming their intelligence (don't want to overcommit an attack on Tholia only to find out if was just a small squadron of ships that moved), assembling a strike force and assigning targets (much of that had been pre-planned, I'm sure), and launching their own counter offensive... well then perhaps the Tholians actually can expect to finish their operations and get back to base in time to defend. Thus, even though the universe is obviously 'real', the 'game universe' example might very well be the correct one -- and thus the Tholians really should be allowed to move a full six hexes to attack after all.

*~*~*~*

Of course, this same line of thinking should be applies to military intelligence, in regards to Jon Murdock's analysis of how the Tholians would react to the coalition winning.

In the 'game universe' theory, the Tholians only need to look at the board, see how the coalition is winning and that the Federation is soon to surrender, and the Tholians will surely be next... and thus the idea of counterattacking to knock the coalition off-balance while they still can affect the outcome seems not only logical, but imperative.

But in the 'real universe', a known enemy is off somewhere, distracted by fighting an less-known enemy, somewhere out in the darkness. What are the intentions there? What was the reasons for that conflict? What will be the outcome? When will the aggressors be back, if ever? These are philosophical questions with real military implications, but unknowable in nature. All is known is that they are not here now. Thus continuing to build up the defense fleet is the only logical response, just in case the aggressors ever return.

*~*~*~*

That all being said, I use a similar rule in my game, and it works fairly good. I have a bunch of other rules as well, which makes it impossible to overwhelm the Tholians in a single turn, while providing incentive to keep the Tholians bottled up. I don't know if I have the right mix yet.

I think you're on the right track with your idea. I need to point out though, the Tholians have *seven* bases outside their capital, not six. 5 BATS, 2 Starbases.

Also, the change would be pro-alliance. (You stated as such.) How do we rebalance the game in response to this idea?

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 - 09:51 pm: Edit

I forgot that there was a BATS facing the Federation. Good catch. I would still limit movement to six hexes and require two lost bases to knock it down.

Yeah, the question of how much the Tholians would know is a good one. The Tholians probably have a more difficult time then most running their intelligence network. It is hard to disguise a Tholian as a Klingon though with groucho glasses maybe you could pull it off. I would guess the Tholians get a lot of their intel from signal intercepts, decryption, interrogation of POWs, and possibly from the Orions who probably have a good grasp of what is going on nearby. I imagine the Tholians would have a reasonably up to date estimate on how much Federation space is lost and what the war is about.

And yeah, you can make the argument that the Tholians would never leave knowing they could be attacked but in F&E you have to accept the abstraction or virtually every empire would have to leave a lot more ships on defense in case they get hit before they retrograde.

For the pro-coalition counter I like the idea of compelling Kzinti and Gorn ships to go to Tholia's defense (increasing requirements based on lost bases and maybe even Federation ships if the situation is desperate and too many bases are wiped out) but I am not sure that is enough and you also face the probability that unlike the historical war the Klingons and Romulans will probably link up and cut off the Tholians from the Federation and then how do the ships get in and out? I like the idea of the Coalition cynically leaving a route open to allow/force the ships to go in. The Tholians would also likely have to pay to adopt them and they would be stuck there until The Coalition takes Tholia or the Federation makes contact again.

Or maybe you either provide the ships or the Alliance must provide an EP subsidy (smuggled by the Orions if no contact line exists). This gives an incentive to come up with a way to send the ships so you are not bleeding EPs. You may even send the ships in early in anticipation of the Holdfast being cut off. I like this idea. It hampers the Alliance. I am thinking 2 ships from a non-Federation Alliance member for every base lost except for the first one (maxing out at 12 ships). For every ship not provided a member of the Alliance must provide 1 EP for each ship not present in the Alliance Economic phase. This must be shipped via smuggling if there is no strategic movement route to the Holdfast.

If that is not enough one other thought I had was the lost Klingon colonies. Maybe limited trade opens up and the Klingons can get some of the income if the Tholians lose enough bases.