Peter: Even if a raided player fights a reaction battle. his units are vulnerable to an alternative attack if the raider is uncrippled and doesn't retreat.

If the raider is eligible to perform a special attack, this occurs BEFORE the raided player retreat.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Sunday, August 11, 2019 - 04:38 pm: Edit

lord, richard, you made me feel a little crazier than i'm comfortable with

in Jan '14 you asked the question about the APT exploit. ISTR it being used in the field before you posted, I think perhaps it might have been Mr. Calhoon. Can't check, doesnt matter except the nagging fear my brain has bad sectors :/

the raid erratum (the ACTUAL relevant topic, sorry peter, sorry jason) i still think i remember i still cannot find. there were a flurry of raid-related Qs in 2014, where the As didnt keep up very closely. Might be in there, of course might not exist at all.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, August 11, 2019 - 05:06 pm: Edit

I don't remember Mr. Calhoon ever using it.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Sunday, August 11, 2019 - 05:41 pm: Edit

I dont even know what an APT is...

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, August 11, 2019 - 06:24 pm: Edit

They're part of the cover sheet for the TPS reports.

Didn't you get the memo?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, August 11, 2019 - 06:33 pm: Edit

Heh. Not that I'm a total iron fist or anything, but if we could keep the discussion focused on things that are actually happening in this game, that'd be cool :-)

Looking at the raid rules, it says:

(314.244) "The raiding ship and reacting ship (or equivalent) combined with any defending units already in the hex then fight one round of single combat...

...B: A defender forced to retreat would do so under the normal rules for retreating..."

So let's say DNL attacks a hex with 2FF in it, and an FF reacts in. The DNL and 3FF can fight in the "reaction battle". Assuming the DNL forces the 3FF to retreat, they then retreat. So there is no one left in the hex to "alternate attack".

Alternately, the DNL attacks a hex with 2FF in it, and an FF reacts in. The DNL offers a "reaction battle", and the defenders decline. So then the DNL can attack a single FF, and the other get away.

The only situation I can see where the raiding unit gets 2 chances to kill something are:

A) There are multiple defending units in the hex.

B) The defender sends a single ships on the multiple to fight in the "reaction battle", leaving some ships to be left in the hex after the reaction battle.

Am I missing something? It is possible I am reading outdated rules, as I am reading the raid rules in AO 2003.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, August 11, 2019 - 08:44 pm: Edit

There is a clarification (I was involved in this) that if I recall correctly said that the retreat is after the special attack. The main idea as I understand is that the raider must be repulsed or it WILL get to hit any target in a hex. Retreat does not stop this, though it still happens after the raider performs any alternative attack.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, August 11, 2019 - 09:00 pm: Edit

Ah, ok. Yeah that isn't in the AO 2003 book then :-)

So if a hex with multiple ships is hit, you, as the defender can:

A) Fight a reaction battle with whatever, and then suffer a special attack against any single target, before any retreats.

or

B) Decline the reaction battle with whatever, and then suffer a special attack against any single target, before any retreats.

So a DNL hits a hex with 3FF, the 3FF can fight the DNL in the reaction battle, and then the DNL (if it is not repulsed) can go fight a single FF. Or the 3FF can avoid the reaction battle, and then the DNL can just go fight a single FF.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, August 11, 2019 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Yes, or fight the reaction battle with less than 3FF but at least one. :p

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, August 12, 2019 - 08:14 am: Edit

AT29

The first batch of the multitude of combats is finished. The Gorn fought for 6 rounds (and a pursuit) over planet 4705, seeing 2 Romulan and 3 Gorn X ships vaporize ('cause the Romulans ran out of X ships first), along with a few Romulan maulers and an adopted D6S (which apparently doesn't provide salvage to anyone. Cruel!); the Gorn lost 2 crippled HD and a crippled BD in the pursuit, however.

Currently, the death toll is at 29 Coalition and 16 Alliance, including 17 (and one adopted) Romulans (i.e. a whole turn's worth of production).

Dice have been exactly even currently, with both sides rolling marginally above average, at exactly 3.6 average.

About 10 fights left, including 2 potentially protracted big fights--planet 1910, where both sides have a ton of ships, the Klingons have the edge and the desire to not give up the planet while the Feds have the incentive to try and take the planet; planet 2812 which is similar, but the Feds have less incentive to try and take the planet (which seems unlikely anyway).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 07:35 am: Edit

AT29

Combat is over!

In Hydran space, not actually that much happened. The Hydrans killed a handful of province raiders, took back lightly defneded planet 0519, and made a feint attack at SB 0411. I'm certain that the Hydrans can kill 0411 whenever they decide it is a good idea; it is just a matter of how much damage they want to take and when. The also captured a southern Lyran province.

In Kzinti space, the Kzinti took back planets 1105 and 1802, killed some province raiders in Kzinti and Fed space, and made a feint attack at Lyran SB 0404. They are less capable of killing that SB. but the Lyrans now need a bunch of ships on it.

On the Fed/Klingon front, the Feds took back planets 2106, 2306, 2610; captured NZ planet 2214 (with a not insignificant fleet) were repulsed from NZ planet 1910.

On the Fed/Romulan front, the Feds took back planets 3210 and 3306 and killed a lot of little province raiders.

In Gorn space, the Gorn took back planets 4903 and 5004, fought for a while over planet 4705, and killed a bunch of little province raiders.

Ships killed:
-LYR: 2CW, DD, FF
-KLI: 3DX, 2FX, D6S, D5, 9E4
-ROM: 2FHX, 3FHF, SPC, SEE, 7SEH, 3SN, (D6S)

-ZIN: 2DW, FFK, FF
-FED: 4DDX, NCL, FFB, FFE, FF
-HYD: 2CU
-GRN: 3HDX, LSC, HD, (2HD, BD)

So 38 dead Coalition, 22 dead Alliance, for 60 total, which *might* be a new death record (I'll have to go back and check; Nah, we lost 64 total hulls on AT25, so losing 60 this turn is high, but certainly not the highest). And 14 dead X ships (7 on each side). X ships tend to see battle once, certainly now that both sides have them.

The dynamic in Fed space has certainly shifted--the Klingons have pulled back basically to the Klingon border, except in the south edge, where they still hold Orion (2812); most Klingon ships are either on planet 1910 in the NZ or 2812, but with a similarly sized Fed force sitting on planet 2811. The Fed are undoubtedly going to end AT29 with significant numbers of ships in range of targets in Klingon space. The Romulans are under a little less pressure, but still likely falling back.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 09:10 am: Edit

AT29

Dice were again pretty even, with the Coalition marginally ahead with 3.43 vs the Alliance's 3.36 average. There were a lot of "both sides roll high in fights with giant compots", that saw both sides doing, like, 50+ damage. A few 6-1 splits.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 10:32 am: Edit

AT29

The turn is over!

The Hydrans are mostly on planet 0416. They have a single modest reserve off map.

The Kzinti pulled their ships in Lyran space back to planet 1001, left about 50 ships on planet 1105, a battle line at planet 1802, and have 2 small reserves off map.

The Feds have ships all over the place, with solid fleets at planets 2106, 2306, and 2214 (which is on the Klingon NZ and in range of countless Klingon bases and planets, but not the Klingon Capital) and 3210; a giant fleet at planet 2811; lots of ships in and around Earth. They have 3 solid reserves in the Capital and a small reserve at SB 2907 (presumably to help in case the Romulans try to cut off the off map again, but they have very few ships to do that with this turn).

The Gorn left a big fleet in hex 4604, have a lot of ships in and around the Capital, modest groups at planets 4001, 4903, and 5004. They have 2 solid reserves in the Capital.

Map at end of AT29:

http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/SCD2mapAT29end.html

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 11:36 am: Edit

CT30

y183 SP T30

Lyran Econ:

Command Points: 1

Exploration: 281+13=294 (+11, 330 next)

Treasury EP: 20.67

On Map Provinces (32): 27 (.5)=13.5
Off Map Provinces (8): 30 (.5)=15
Captured Provinces: 2.4+2 (.5)=2.2
On Map Planets: (59): 59 (.5)=29.5
Off Map Planets: (16): 16 (.5)=8
Captured Planets: 3 (.5)=1.5
XTP Conversion (20%, +10)=(23.94)

Total EP: 66.43 (69.7 produced)

Treasury XTP: 53.2

XTP from Conversion: 23.94
XTP from Planets (40%): 31.2
XTP Bonus: 7

Total XTP: 115.34

Construction T30:
-12 CCX (XTP, DN
-12 CCX (XTP, CA)
-40 4CWX (XTP, NCA/CW)
-32 4DWX (XTP, DW)
-6+1 HDWE
-2.5 FF
-0 24PF (pool, 6FFF)
-0 6PF (pool)

Construction Total EP: 9.5
Construction Total XTP: 96

Conversions:
-5 (CC>CCX 0408 XTP)
-5 (CC>CCX 1407 XTP)
-2 (DN>DNH 0617 EP)
-3 (3BC>BCH 0411 EP)

Conversion Total EP: 5
Conversion Total XTP: 10

Repairs:
-3 (NCA, FF 0404)
-1 (FF 0617)

Repair Total: 4

Pay To Supply Ships:

Total Spent EP: 18.5
Total Spent XTP: 106

Treasury EP: 47.93
Treasury XTP: 9.34

PF Replacement:

Field Repair:

FFF Left: 0

Salvage:

-----------------------------------------------

Klingon Econ:

Command Points: 4

Exploration: 186+4=190 (+8, 220 next)

Treasury EP: 31.495

On Map Provinces (52): 49 (.5)=24.5
Off Map Provinces(0): 16 (.5)=8
Captured Provinces: 9.2+10 (.5)=9.6
On Map Planets: (90): 90 (.5)=45
Captured Planets: 14 (.5)=7
XTP Conversion (20%, +10)=(28.82)

Total EP: 96.775 (94.1 produced)

Treasury XTP: 39.97

XTP from Conversion: 28.82
XTP from Planets (40%): 41.6
XTP Bonus: 8

Total XTP: 118.39

Construction T30:
-13 DX (XTP, C8)
-13 DX (XTP, D7)
-14 D5DX (XTP, D5
-30 3D5X (XTP, D5)
-27 3FX (XTP, F5)
-2.5 E4 (D7)
-6 D5W
-7 MD5
-15 3D5
-6+1 HDWE
-8 2F5W
-7.5 3E4 (F5)
-2.5 E4
-0 48PF (pool, 12FFF)

Construction Total EP: 55.5
Construction Total XTP: 97

Conversions:
-7 (D7>DX 1411 XTP)
-7 (D7>DX 0617 XTP)
-2 (C8>C10 2916)

Conversion Total EP: 2
Conversion Total XTP: 14

Repairs:
-1 (E4 1811)
-2 (2E4 1407)
-4 (D5W, 2E4 1411)

Repair Total: 7

Adopting Lyrans:
-Currently 0 adopted; 12 spare lines.

Adoption Total:

Total EP Spent: 64.5
Total XTP Spent: 111

Treasury EP: 32.275
Treasury XTP: 7.39

FFF Left: 0

DBB:

PF Replacement:

Field Repair:

Remaining:

Salvage:

-----------------------------------------------
Romulan Econ:

Command Points: 1

Spare Parts: 5, -1=4

Exploration: 181+7=188 (+7, 190 next)

Treasury: 32.5

On Map Provinces (62): 62 (.5)=31
Off Map Provinces(0): 14 (.5)=7
Captured Provinces: 7.6+14 (.5)=10.8
On Map Planets: (51): 51 (.5)=25.5
Captured Planets: 7 (.5)=3.5
XTP Conversion: (20%, +10)=(25.56)

Total EP: 84.74 (77.8 produced)

Treasury XTP: 11.3

XTP from Conversion: 25.56
XTP from Planets (40%): 23.2
XTP Bonus: 6

Total XTP: 66.06

Construction T30:
-14 FHX (XTP, NH)
-14 FHX (XTP, FH)
-27 3SKX (XTP, SK)
-10 SPE (6PF from pool)
-7 SPF
-15 3SP
-6+1 HDWE
-5 2SEH (SK)
-7.5 3SEH
-2.5 SN (WE)
-2.5 SN
-0 24PF (pool, 6FFF)

Construction Total EP: 56.5
Construction Total XTP: 55

Conversions:
-1 SPB>SPV (3706)
-2 KE>KEX (4613 XTP)

Conversion Total EP: 1
Conversion Total XTP: 2

Repairs:

Repair Total:

Adopt Ships: (0/1 paid for)

Total EP Spent: 57.5
Total XTP Spent: 57

FFF Left: 6

Treasury EP: 27.24
Treasury XTP: 9.06

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 12:10 pm: Edit

It's all about the X-ships!

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Woo a KEX!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 12:27 pm: Edit

Love the KEX. Just a fun ship.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Yeah, IIRC, I put 29 total X ships on the map this turn. The KEX conversion is kind of nuts; I mean, yeah, you are only turning a 9 point ship into a 10 point ship, but for 2 XTP, you are getting all the benefits of X tech on that hull. Granted, the Romulans only will ever be able to convert 1 X ship per turn, and turning a KE>KEX prevents them from making the more effective conversion of the FH>FHX. But still, for 2 XTP, it can't be beat.

The Lyrans had a ton of XTP saved up from the last couple turns (as there was only so much they could do till now), so they exploded a ton of X ships, but will be back to reasonable next turn.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Couldn't you do two KEX conversipns a turn if they're only 2 XTP?

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 07:02 pm: Edit

it's no SNX, but pretty cool all the same.

does CDR reduce the amount of capacity required, or just the cost? cos converting 5 KEX would have enough troll factor to be worth all the headaches setting it up would entail.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Chris, there's an old ruling that say that CDR reduces cost, but not capacity. However, I'm pretty sure CDR doesn't help with the cost of an X-conversion (just like it doesn't help when you change hull types or do a 2-step).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 10:02 pm: Edit

We aren't using CDR (in an expansion not in this game; we are using FO, CO, AO). Maybe I could do 2KEX conversions if they are 2 XTP each at the capital X SB? Not sure.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 10:22 pm: Edit

FEAR did answer the question about CDR and the cost benefit for X-Ship conversions. The answer is that it does. You will need to do a find for (425.2) in the link below.

Here is the link

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - 11:50 pm: Edit

So far no X Ship has been crippled. Only killed. And I think planning your self cripples ahead based on the X conversions at a future time would take some forethought.

As for the KEX, I have to admit I have no idea what it is. I assume a PL-R and some PL-L ? But now has enough power to charge plasma, cloak, and move quickly?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 - 09:37 am: Edit

Re: Multiple X Ship Conversions.

So (523.424) says "...and can perform any conversion of a regular ship to an X-ship, or of one X-ship to another type for which a conversion is listed and allowed (which uses up the entire conversion capacity of the SBX for that turn)."

Which, again, comes out of AO 2003, before the point at which flexible conversions were part of the regular rules. So it is unclear to me if a shipyard based SB can make multiple, small, regular to X-ship conversions or not. Especially given that SBXs don't necessarily *have* specific conversion capacity (in the 2003 rules I have, SBX can simply make any one conversion). So unclear in the rules I have.