Archive through November 17, 2019
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Archive through November 17, 2019
Wow, I had forgotten about that rule. It's a strong reason to start the new shipyard.
So if the Hydrans spend 1EP, the clock starts?
From Thomas's note -
Yes
Seems silly that you have to spend the 1st Ep to start it - but then don't have to spend anything to get turns 4-6?
You have to spend a total of 90 EPs to replace the shipyard. You do not have to spend them in 6 turns. The maximum you can spend on any given turn is 15 EPs. See (511.32) Are you playing with the minor shipyard rules (450.0)? If so, then a medium ship yard comes into play once you have spend a 48 EPs over 6 turns, with a maximum of 8 EPs per turn applied to it, giving you anything that is a CA or larger hull. See (450.2).
Wait. Why wouldn't the Hydrans be replacing their shipyard?
Repairs are taking priority. But spending 1EP to start the clock on the OC shipyard would be well worth it.
Thomas
No additional shipyards for us.
Peter - as William said - Hydrans are poor and have has a very a large repair list! 
(They still have 34.5 Ep's on Repairs to go - and that's with the 2 FRD's and a SB!)
On the longer term - as the Hydrans will drop to 75% on turn 16, there probably is very little reason to spend 90 Ep's to replace the shipyard - as they will not be able to afford many hulls - although it does mean they will never be able to build more than 2 hulls in a turn (and nothing bigger than a RN).
The OSY and SB will take 15.5 Ep's a year to produce a RN, LN and 2 CU's...
Add in a couple of Conversions, a command point and some repairs..... and that's their income spent.
...and just to hurt the Hydrans more...
the HR to NSC costs 3 Ep's by the looks of things, not 1 Ep?
(Although very much worth it!)
Paul wrote:
>>Peter - as William said - Hydrans are poor and have has a very a large repair list!>>
I'm pretty sure we had this conversation in some previous game now that I think about it; from my point of view, it seems counterproductive to hold off on rebuilding the Hydran shipyard, even with a lot of cripples.
The cripples will all get fixed eventually while giving up the shipyard means turns and turns of unrealized production. Yeah, the Hydrans only make, like, what, 25EPs per turn most of the time, but that is 15 for a shipyard and 10 points of repairs every turn, which will still go a long way in tying up Coalition forces.
>>On the longer term - as the Hydrans will drop to 75% on turn 16, there probably is very little reason to spend 90 Ep's to replace the shipyard - as they will not be able to afford many hulls - although it does mean they will never be able to build more than 2 hulls in a turn (and nothing bigger than a RN).>>
Not rebuilding the shipyard is giving up 12 free fighter factors a year for the next, what, 10-12 years of game time (the Hydrans lost their shipyard on T7 this game? Start fixing the shipyard on AT7, start building ships on AT13--that is +/-21 turns of free fighters they are giving up). Even if you aren't building a full run of ships, the Hydrans can, even at 75% income, build 6FF hulls and convert en existing hull to a CV every turn to get ship numbers and damage absorption up, and force the Coalition to send more ships to the area to maintain ship parity.
Even at 75%, the Hydrans can get 12 ships and 2 SEQ of fighters on the map every year, and still have money left to continue fixing cripples (slowly, but still).
Giving up all those hulls of potential production is giving the Coalition a free pass, and giving up a lot of victory points.
>>the HR to NSC costs 3 Ep's by the looks of things, not 1 Ep?>>
Yeah, the scout conversions are all based on the advanced rules (i.e. the master SIT is based on the full rules, and then in 2K10, the master SIT was back loaded into the basic game), where you pay 1EP per point of scout ability (i.e. a 1 point FF scout costs 1 to convert, a 2 point DD scout costs 2 to convert, a 3 point CW scout costs 3 to convert, a 4 point CA scout costs 4 to convert). In the basic game, there is zero reason, really, to make anything other than 1 point FFs scouts. I mean, yeah, they get blown up, but you can make a billion little scouts if you need to, and it doesn't really matter.
That being said, as someone who was a serious hold out, playing only the basic game for a really, really long time, I in no way regret picking up most of the advanced rules (up through AO); we still leave out some of the fiddlier rules in a rough balance, but using like, the advanced EW rules aren't particularly difficult or onerous, and are interesting, generally speaking.
Crips to be repaired eventually do not divert many Coalition ships from the Fed front. Fed income this turn (A12) was 166. They have all but one of their original SB and even briefly conquered a Klingon major planet, while losing only four of their own minor planets (plus Orion of course). I count these as gains from the Hydran sacrifice and the earlier Kzinti shipyard delay.
Without completed games, it is hard to know whether or not it is worth it. I obviously think it is.
I think getting ships back into the fight is the most important thing for the Hydrans and Kzinti can do - every repaired ship pulls a ship away from the Federation front.
I do fully agree the Kzinti need to get their Shipyard back into action as soon as possible - but the Kzinti in most games can get direct aid from the Feds (Ep's), but also indirect aid (repairing ships and William has done that very well).
The Hydrans don't get that support - and crucially, possibly they held their capital a turn or two longer than normal (so had extra ships built) and the indirect downside of that, is that they probably don't have the time to produce enough ships, when then shipyard would have been back up (i.e. T7-T12 rebuild it - so they have 3 turns of 100% economy).
The other issue is that the Hydrans can build good hulls - cheaper - the Old Colonies Ship Yard.
Yes, they give up 24 Ep's of Free Fighters a year....but they do get 6 Ep's of Hybrid Fighters a year for free.
So, the Hydrans can build a RN, LN and 2 x CU's a year.
They can convert them to a CV and DE (and if flush for cash a AH or two) -
RN will cost 6.5 (4 Hybrid Fighters) and so a further 18.5 Ep's to convert to a CV.
The LN will cost 4 (plus 2 Hybrid Fighters) and a further 2 Ep's for the conversion to a DE.
So that's 31 Ep's plus 5 to 7 Ep's for Light Escorts (or Ad Hoc's).
That's pretty much close to the Off Map 75% Economy level - having spent 90 Ep's on a Shipyard - you can build the CV for 17 Ep's (build and convert) - using the 6 FFF's.
So, yes a cost saving..... but perhaps the cost of 90 Ep's of repairs not done would far exceed the saving?
So, personally (alas!) William I think made the right decision..... and so yes, he should have built the new Hydran Ship yard to waste 90 Ep's
Medium ship yard and MSYs (built free with ENG) is usually the way to go for the Hydrans imo.
william
if the cripples fail to hold his attention you can always skip a *later* turn of shipyard. he strats out, loses something valuable, and has to strat back in, that's a pretty nice whipsaw.
it is absolutely true that sooner or later, you have to cut builds to pay for repairs. but getting the yard up earlier means you are getting your fleet geared up for more effective attrition warfare (via FFF) while you are cutting those builds. the really favorable exchanges available to you now hinge on carrier warfare, AFAIK.
just from first principles, he has incentive to keep ships in theater to counter the repairs you might do in the short term. since he has to commit first, why oblige him and promptly undertake the action he has already paid to insure against?
Clearly I should have spent 1EP to get the OC ship yard up.
I've skipped 4 turns of shipyard so far and still have 37EP of cripples. Next turn I will definitely spend the 1EP to start the OC yard. I may go for the whole 15, but I don't have to make that decision yet.
If I was your opponent, I'd just let you spend 1EP now and assume 4 turns went by since you did.
Paul and I have been playing pretty loose on that kind of thing, but 4 turns is a bit much, especially since Adm. Pyrrhus won a close and bloody battle 2 turns ago.
See reply in General Discussion Thread.
Quick and fast - I am happy for us to go back at least 1 turn (as no ship can be built on turn 1 and turn 2 is perhaps less valuable at double cost).
With time (I was out last nigh) - I was going to go back to see if the Hydrans had spare Ep's since the fall of 617 to see when the first Ep could have been spent...
….but to be honest, I still don't understand the OCY rule - I previously have never linked the building of the new Shop yard to the OCY and have always played it (I that what the rule saud) that the turn you lose 617, the Alliance next turn is turn 1 for the OCY, so we would now be on turn 6 for the OCY - I just assumed William was saving the Ep's up!
Confused
I'll take up Paul's kind offer -- but start it this turn. Additionally it seems I "saved" 2EP by using the wrong SIT for the NSC conversion. So the Hydrans have 6EP remaining, 1EP spent towards the new shipyard, and 6EP in the bank instead of 9.
Alliance turn 12 op move is done. On turns 10 and 11, the Klingons were the main targets of the Federation's ire as the Romulans looked nigh invincible. Gorn entry and the changes in crip levels (Romulans have more; Klingons fewer) have turned that around in a hurry!
Under attack are all three Romulan-held Fed planets, one NZ planet, and three Romulan BATS. The Romulans have a pinned reserve and a potential unpinning reserve in range. These reserves are likely to save 1-2 of the above targets. It is also possible that some targets might "save" themselves with outstanding rolls, or, in one case, command points.
On the Klingon side, most of the Fed attacks are on Klingon fleets, including a fleet of crips with a giant cross-hairs painted on them near Earth. The Klingons have two pinned reserves and one potential unpinning reserved. This should allow them to turn at least one of the fights to their advantage.
The final Fed attack is on Klingon minor planet 1407. It is defended by a Lyran BATS. There are also four(!) Coalition reserves in range, including one starting on the planet itself. Even all four reserves might not be enough to prevent the Feds from winning an approach battle. But they certainly would make things painful for the feds, especially if they choose to fight a base battle in front of 2PDU and a BATS.
The Kzinti are attempting to retake minor planet 1902 and kick the Klingons off of NZ planet 1506. They are also fighting a space battle at 1601. The Lyrans have better compot there but suffer from a lack of fighters.
Lastly, there are the Hydrans. Their main fleet has another map-reentry battle. They also have a smaller fleet that is already on the map and didn't see any need to bang its head against any walls, adjacent Coalition fleets, or other obstacles this turn. The smaller fleet also needs a scout, which reserve movement just might be able to supply in time for their next battle.
Alliance turn 12 combat is underway. The only big battle so far was at minor planet 1407. The Feds rolled well, resulting in:
Klingon losses: 2PDU, planet devastated
23EP of Coalition crips
Fed losses: DN+, CL, FFE, command point
3.2EP of drones and 5.5EP of crips
1407 was pretty evil on the Coalition, rolls were 2.67 for the Coalition v 4 for the Alliance.
Once more, Coalition can't do any really damage in a pursuits - another 1 rolled for damage (and a 6 for William).
At least I did kill the DN+.
Well, my dice improve…. and William then gets another capture (just a F5 this time).
On a particular type of dice - capture is where William is massively lucky and I am massively unlucky.
William is probably about 150% of what he should have (8 captures now I think) - and I am at probably less than 50% (just 2 captures) 
Dice continue to favour the alliance (again!) - although difference is smaller now - 3.5 v 3.83.
Game averages are no 3.47 (VBIR), 3.39 (Coalition) v 3.46 (Alliance) - 528 normal dice so far.
0.16 doesn't seem much - but an average of 1 point higher per 6 battle rounds isn't to be sniffed at!
Cloak - 1 attempt and failed - so 2/3rs success now.
The second big battle of the turn is over. At Romulan BATS 4010, the Gorns, with some Fed support, destroyed the BATS but took quite a lot of cripples.
Gorn crippled: 3HD, 6DD
Romulan crippled: 3SP
Gorn killed: BC
Romulan killed: SPF and the BATS
Killing the BATS is important. But we do have an extra 6EP of cripples, and it might cost the Gorns something on the Romulan turn.
Dice were quite even here.
Gorns and Feds also destroyed Romulan BATS 4012 and 3914, crippling a 5-compot ship at each.