I finally have capture a nice ship.

And as ships go - it's too bad.

Over 2103, the Lyrans lost a STT (which wasn't captured) and the Kzinti lost a CVS and CLE group.

The Lyrans now have a nice shiny Kzinti CVS.....

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Yes I made multiple mistakes, resulting in the CVS+CLE getting mauled. Then Paul got the capture.

Kzinti should have had 1BT at each SB instead of two at one and none at the other. And I should have gone low on the BIR. They also should have spent a command point.

Captured CVS will hurt us. Oh well.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Well, the CVS escaped but William did kill a Lyran BC - so not all bad news.

Will give a fuller update in the morning - off to bed!

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, January 05, 2020 - 07:39 pm: Edit

I undercounted Fed DefPot at the 7th fleet SB. It's closer than I thought. Stay tuned.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 06, 2020 - 02:37 am: Edit

Summary of C14 combat to date

Dice - still don't like the Coalition - after 33 rounds averages are 3.91 (V), 3.18 (C) and 3.63 (A).

It does worry me one side is constantly rolling a lot lower than the other - can't explain it, but the facts are pretty obvious.

Shock rolls - 0 for 1 passed (game is 1 for 2 passed).

Offensive Cloak - 1 for 3 passed (so about average).

Persuit - 0 of 1 passed for Coalition and 3 of 4 passed for Alliance.

Klingons have lost a D7C and F4S
Lyrans have lost a STT, BC and 2 x DD.
Romulans have lost a FAL, KR, SPF, SP, 2 x WE and K4
Kzinti have lost a CVS(captured), CLE and EFF.
Hydrans have lost a CU.
Federation have lost 2 x BATS and 2 x FF.
Gorn have lost 6 x BATS, 2 x BC and a CL


Dice were nice to the Hydrans (single good roll was against a Carrier Line and 3 other rolls were all too low to direct kill anything) and have been evil a couple of times to the Romulans (Gorns rolled well to kill a cripple KR and WE).

Not too many combats to go - but most of them are fairly big ones.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 06, 2020 - 02:30 pm: Edit

2915 - well a Titanic battle is going on!

Both sides have thrown the Kitchen Sink at each other and are looking for at other Kitchen Utensils, as Power for Phasers, Disruptors, Plasma and Proton Torpedoes has long since run out.

Both the Klingons and Federation used 2 Command Points.

The once proud Federation fleet is down to a uncrippled CVA, defending a SB with 5 SIDS on it.

The battered Coalition force is down to uncrippled Battle Tug, Condor, D6M, D7C, D7, D5, F5 and SE.

Both sides have a pile of cripples (the Klingons have crippled nearly a years worth of production of D5's) - and if the SB falls, the once proud 7th Fleet will be Out of Supply.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, January 06, 2020 - 07:58 pm: Edit

Yes, the 7th fleet SB battle is a coin flip which I appear to be in the process of losing. The SB may survive, crippled, for one more turn, or it may die outright.

And that's fine. Half the time, your coin comes up tails.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 08:06 am: Edit

….and the Battle over the 7th Fleet SB is over.

Using the battered SB to cover it's retreat, the remains of the 7th Fleet retreated to 3015 - but in a final act of vengeance, the retreating fleet destroyed a crippled D5 on the way out.

The SB then died with a F5 being crippled.

Butchers Bill
Lots of Coalition cripples and a D5 killed
Several Alliance cripples and a Battle Tug and 2 x FF's killed.

One of the FF's was captured and used in a Commando raid on the SB (+1 on the dice).

The 7th fleet is Out of Supply in 3015 - but the CVA (the only uncrippled ship) does have 15 Fighters with it.

In a relevant Battle, the BATS (had 2 SIDS on it already) in 3212 also died, but the Federation killed a K7R and K5L (captured in the pursuit battle).

Although reachable in 3118, any Alliance forces attacking the MB being set up will be unable to retrograde ((No retrograde points in range and probably out of supply).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 02:53 pm: Edit

Coalition turn 14 combat is over and lets start with the dice.

They started horrible for the Coalition (and not waning to jinx it, I said nothing), improved in the middle and then went downhill.

After 52 rounds, averages are
VBIR 3.95
Coalition 3.25
Alliance 3.60

Towards the end the dice were pretty brutal, in that the both sides rolled badly but the Alliance twice did enough to kill something and the Coalition missed it by one on the dice.

Game averages (683 rolls) are 3.48, 3.41 and 3.50 - so pretty much bang on for VBIR and the Alliance, and slightly lower for the Coalition.

I would say, Key rolls might have very marginally favoured the Coalition (although, in Persuits the Alliance seems to always roll well, they did do badly in 1 pursuit battle) - 3212 died needing some modest luck (which I did get) and better rolls over 2915 meant I too less cripples there.

That does though mean I took a lot more damage 'than average', elsewhere though!


Cloaked offensive was slightly up (2 of 4)

Persuis - Successful, 0 for 2 for the Coalition and 6 of 10 for the Alliance (not all on both sides needed a 5 or less).

Captures - for once the Coalition rolled better - Kz-CVS and Fed-FF versus K5L.


Shocks - 0 of 1 passed

Total dead for the turn amounted to : -

Klingons D7C, D7, D5 and F5S
Lyrans BC, STT, DWE, 2 x DD,
Romulans FAL, K7R, KR, 3 x WE, SPF, SP, K5L, SK, 2 x K4

Kzinti CVS, CLE and EFF
Hydrans CU
Federation Tug+BP, 2 x FF, SB, 2 x BATS
Gorn 2 x BC, CL, 7 x BATS

I think with just 2 or 3 more Dead Alliance ships, I would have been very happy with the overall result.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Thursday, January 09, 2020 - 07:35 am: Edit

In the probably forlorn hope of convincing you that the dice are not out to get you, have you tried re-rolling the 7th fleet SB assault a few times, just to see what could have happened there?

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 07:36 am: Edit

I had been wondering if 21 of the old colony shipyard free fighter factors would allow me to produce a CV for 10EP. Per this Q&A, the answer appears to be yes:

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 04:56 am:

RE: Hydran Free Fighter Factors

Asked & Answered in CL35

Quote:
Q: The Hydran Guild Shipyard gets (511.321) “three free fighter factors for hybrid ships” per turn. Are these three “hybrid factors” (worth three EPs) or three “standard fighter factors but only usable on hybrid ships”. Can they use them to build a ship such as the IC which uses standard fighter factors? Since Free Fighter Factors were changed to an annual allowance, does the Guild Shipyard really get six per Spring turn and none in the Fall?

A: They are three “hybrid factors” (worth three EPs). They could be used on the IC but each one would give the IC only half of a fighter factor.

Only problem is that the way things are going currently, the last even-numbered turn of the OC shipyard's existence will be turn number 6, at which point it will have received only 18 hybrid FFF.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 08:54 am: Edit

For this turn's Fed build, the main question is "How many FF does their schedule allow?" The answer appears to be 15:

12 baseline
2 add 2FF in Y175+
1 sub CVN for CVA.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 10:00 am: Edit

William

The IC is an exception to the rule in only ships produced by the OC Shipyard can use the Free Hybrid Factors - so the general rule of 'only the LN/RN being able to benefit (as the CU can't)' applies.

I the IC was an option, you could defer building it and completing the shipyard, until you had 21 Hybrid Factors available.

On Fed FF's - looks like it's 14 as no 'CVN' group is on the list to sub a FEE for the DE.

Next time we play, we probably want to go through a list of permitted Subs and other ships, as just the basic rules does create some issues, which the add on rules resolve (lack of Down sub for the Feds and no true heavy Romulan escorts for example).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 10:08 am: Edit

End of Coalition Turn 14 sees...

The nice shiny new Klingon C8V (and escorts) go to the Hydran front - with afew new Lyran ships too.

The bulk of the permitted forces in the Federation NW area withdrew back to Klingon and 'True Patriach' Space.

The True Patriach also looks forward to the recreation of his 'New' Kzinti navy, with the captured CVS safely back in 1401.

A couple of Lyran ships and a larger number of Klingon ships remain in the North West area and are Out of Supply.

In Southern Federation space - the battered forces from 1915 return to Base but a large number of Klingon ships remain deep into the Federationm, due to a lack of retrograde space (but are in supply).

Romulan forces withdrew back to the Romulan/Gorn border with some peace keeping forces remaining in Gorn Space.

Strong Lyran reserves are in 1509, 1202 and 1802, and the Klingons have strong reserves in 1407, 2518 and 2 in 2612.

More modest Romulan reserves are in 3518, 4214 and 4611.

20 Eps of much needed cash was sent by the Lyrans to the Klingons.

No money was spent on Field Repair or additional Strategic Movement.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 01:09 pm: Edit

The OC shipyard is allowed to sub variants. I would assume a CV is a variant of the permitted RN. Though I have no idea if it is Fusion or Hellbore. I guess that could knock it out of contention.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 02:07 pm: Edit

I am not SFB Ship Expert...but the blurb on the ships classes states the Hydran CV is based on the RN - so it would appear to be a permitted Substitution and can be built at the OCSY.

Only real issue is cost - as you would need to pay 1 Ep to upgrade each Hybrid Factor or it seems you may be able to use 2 HFF for 1 FF (but the answer includes the world 'presumably' and I not sure if was a formal FEAR answer ) .

I'll try and search a bit deeper on 511.321 - after tea.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Nope couldn't find anything...

...other than the only hull the RN can't be sub'd for (in the OCSY) is probably the LM (180+) and the HN can't e sub'd for a CR, as they both have Hellbore and Fusion weapons).

(There is no valid RN>DG, but you can sub a DG
for a RN - weird!!)

So yes, you can sub the RN to a CV.... but it will cost you!

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 07:24 pm: Edit

The Old Colonies Shipyard can substitute non-hellbore variants for the RN or LN, or HN as appropriate for the hull type being built. So you can substitute a CV for the RN. Keep in mind that you have to pay 2 EPs per fighter factor. Although you could have 6 of those fighter factors paid by the free fighter factors you have saved each turn during construction of the new shipyard. If playing with AO, then those fighter factors are probably better used for the IC.

See (511.321) for more details.

The other substitution rules will not let you sub a LC (Lord Commander) for the RN. You would have to build the RN then convert it to the LC.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 07:36 pm: Edit

Note that the OC guild shipyard can last longer than six turns if a medium or full shipyard is not constructed in that time frame.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Thomas why only 6? Do the free fighters not start until turn #3?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, January 10, 2020 - 08:34 pm: Edit

You accumulate 3 hybrid fighter factors per turn under (511.321). You do not accumulate standard free fighter factors while the shipyard is being rebuilt under (511.33). There is ruling that the hybrid fighter factors can be exchanged for standard fighter factors for carriers at the rate of 1 hybrid fighter factor for 0.5 standard fighter factors. As with standard fighter factors 2 turns can be carried over into the next year, e.g. 3 for turns 1, 2, 3, and 4. Turns 1 and 2 must be spent by turn 4 or they are lost.*

* Turns 1 and 2 assume that they fall on the spring and fall turns of the same given year.

In the Empires of the Dead game I built a TG on turn 4 of the rebuilding of my shipyard. Turn 5 I built the IC and used 10 of 10.5 hybrid fighter factors to give me 5 fighter factors. I still had to pay 30 EPs for the remaining 15 fighter factors I needed to complete it.

Turn 6 is the current turn of the game, but Bill and I are still in his half of the turn. I'm planning to build the RN on Turn 6, but haven't decided if that is what I'm actually going to go with.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 04:42 am: Edit

Sorry - I introduced the IC and it probably has confused things.

We are only playing with basic rules so no IC.

Basic F&E does not permit Carrier Free Fighters to be accumulated - it's either use them or lose them (although there is an optional rule you can take 1 year of fighters in the spring OR fall - 431.74).

There is a permitted exception though (511.321) with Free Hybrid Fighters and the OCSY free factors CAN be accumulated and the only way to lose them is to complete the Main Ship Yard.

So in our game, William can use the free HFF on the following new ships build/sub'd :-

LN
DE
RN
CV

The LC would also appear to be an option - but not the LM - and not sure about the UH (doesn't mention if it has Hellbores).

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 06:55 am: Edit

The LC is not an option. The LC is considered to be a command cruiser. It has a defensive compot of 9, not 8 like the RN, CV, and TG. It could only be converted from a RN. Unless you absolutely need another CR 9 ship, I would not waste the resources on it. The best Hydran ship to convert to a command cruiser is the DG, and then only to a LB. This way you don't lose fighter factors and you don't have to pay for additional fighter factors.

The exception to the above would be in Y180+ when the LC could be subbed for a LB or LM which were subbed for a DG or RN respectively.

See (709.221) and (709.223) on the Hydran Y168 Order of Battle. Also see the LC under G3 in SFB.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 07:10 am: Edit

Thomas - your correct, sorry missed the LC is a Sub from a CC and NOT a CA....

So just the LN ,DE, RN, CV and possibly the UH are valid hulls to use the HFF on.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 07:27 am: Edit

Kzinti economy, turn 14

Survey roll 14
Survey total 149
Survey EP 12
Offmap 17
Province 1

Income 30
From last turn 12.5

Total Money 42.5


Barony repairs 3.5

Builds
CMV 7
3MEC 18
4FF, SC 13.5

Subtotal 38.5

Total spent 42

Money after Econ 0.5

Command points: 2+1=3