Hydran economy, turn 14

Survey roll 8
Survey total 115
Survey EP 10
Offmap 17
Provinces 1
Income 28
From last turn 0.5

Total Money 28.5

Repairs 13
Shipyard (2/6) 15

Total spending 28

Money after Econ 0.5

Command points: 5+1=6

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 07:35 am: Edit

Federation economy, turn 14

Survey roll 25
Survey total 109
Survey EP 10
Offmap 6
Capital 59
Planets 38
Provinces 41
NZ 2.2

Income 156.2
From last turn 8.15

Total Money 164.35

Repairs
Earth 39.5
Near Earth 16
4th 8
5th 3.5
6th 6
8th 8
9th 8
BATS 4

Subtotal 93

Builds
15FF 45
2NCL 10
Activations 7
Skipped: CVA, CC, CA, 8NCL, NEC, DE

Subtotal 62

Conversions

CVS (Earth) 2
2DE (4th, Earth) 2
FFS (6th) 1

Subtotal 5

Homeless Gorns (8 slots) 4

Total spent 164
Remaining after econ 0.35

3rd SB grid 2EP, repair FF and FFE, balance 0

Command points: 0+1=1

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 07:36 am: Edit

Well, I had to look that one up - a CMV!!

Never seen one built - but a much better option for the Kzinti in our game, than a CV, who have enough fleet carriers at the moment - and 5 Ep's cheaper

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 07:38 am: Edit

Gorn economy, turn 14

Survey roll 7
Survey total 16
Survey EP 0
Offmap 12
Capital 24
Planets 15
Provinces 27
NZ 3

Income 81
From last turn 0

Total Money 81

Repairs

6th 8
SW 7.5
4002 1
4004 2
4203 2
4506 2.5
Gdhar 3 2.5

Subtotal 25.5

Builds
DN 18
2HD, HDE 16
3DD, DDE 13

Subtotal 47

Conversions

6th CL>CV, DD > SC 3

Total spent 75.5

Money after econ 5.5

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 07:43 am: Edit

To me, the big event was the Fed repairs. A total of 64 ships (including some Kzinti and one Gorn) were repaired at Fed bases and FRDs. Combined with their 17 builds and 7 activations, a total of 88 hulls are added to the number of uncrippled Alliance ships in the Federation.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 08:22 am: Edit

OK on the Kzinti, Hydran and Gorn economies.

I can't see any way to get the 15th Federation FF though?

(The ECL can only be a CL and the DE's not built can only be DD's -431.734 as there no Sub for a FF option)

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 08:31 am: Edit

There is a line that says the Feds can sub CVN for CVA in 174+. This is a bit nebulous as "CVN" referred to the carrier group of CVA+NAC+DE+FFE. This group counter formerly existed but no longer does. The group still appears in the latest SIT.

During an earlier discussion about the expensive Fed escorts, Thomas wrote here that the escort substitution could still be made. It does seem like something that needs re-thinking at their end, however.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 12:21 pm: Edit

If the CVN group did existed in 2010 (I don't think it did), the only valid claim I think would be to build the 4CVN group instead of a 4CVA group.

431.73 only allows you to replace the basic hull from the production schedule ship - so if you don't build the 4CVA, you end up with the relevant ships - which is a DD - subbing a group and then not building it would seem to be linking two rules, which I don't think is permitted.

In effect your trying to do a double substation.

So as it stands - I can't see there being any 2010 rule which allows you to sub a ship and then in effect sub it again.

(As an equivalent example - I don't believe they should be able to, but could the Klingons end up with a F5 from a Scheduled D6 - i.e. Sub a F5L from the D6, and then Sub the F5 for the subbed F5L - both substituents are permitted individually - but I don't believe a double sub is allowed).

Not sure how big a potential problem of expensive hulls* on the Federation schedule is, but if we play a new game after this one, if we agree it could be an issue, either we need to include some of the add on rules (which automatically resolves some of the problems) or include a permitted list of subs, if we still want the cleaner system?

i.e. Is 3 expensive Hulls (ECL and 2 x DE) out of 57 per year (which becomes 3 out of 61 from 175) that big an issue - certainly allowing the Romulans SPM's say is a much bigger benefit than those 3 hulls becoming FF's

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Chained subs are definitely allowed. See Q&A Archive through August 09, 2012.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Or are you saying the chaining rule is not a basic game rule? I guess the Feds could remove one FF, do some conversions, support one more Gorn, and things could continue that way.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 02:02 pm: Edit

I really need to read the Q&A section more often!

I can't see how Subbing for a Sub would apply to the add on rules (other than it doesn't sound logical to me - but that's life!) and not the basic game.

So the example I gave of a D6 becoming a F5 is valid in 2010.

Happy to leave things as they are for the moment - it's only 1 hull and doesn't make any difference and we can ask a Q&A.

(My gut feeling is in 2010 it can't be done, and if the CVN group does exist in 2010, I think the powers that be will say subbing a CVA group for a CVN group and then not building it would not be permitted.

In other words - the only way to get the 15th FF will be to build the CVN group .)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 02:03 pm: Edit

You certainly can sub a sub in production; like, for example (using only the 2K10 build schedule rules), if the Fed really wanted to sub a DN for their CVA build, they can do that (431.73), and then they can instead sub a CC for that DN (702.3).

The thing that isn't allowed is, like, having the Lyrans (who are, I think, the only ones who can actually benefit from this) sub a CA for their DN, and then immediately convert that CA to a DN, and save 2EPs (but they still can sub a CA for their DN, and then convert a *different* CA in the Capital into a DN, and end up exactly the same, but still...)

But in terms of the CVN group, that isn't in 2K10. If you are just using the 2K10 OB, the Fed only ever build [CVA, ECL, 2DE] on their schedule. Which is terrible. But at least with the flexible CV group rules, you can always just ignore the CL/2DD hulls and replace them with NCL/FF escorts (and converted DEs).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 02:26 pm: Edit

Peter

That's what my (revised) thinking now is

It's a shame the ECL lost it's armour...

...but the DE is probably tad expensive for what it gives - but you build what you can, not what you want (there are lots of other examples, the CR, SNB, the cost of some Romulan ships (SK at 3.5 for example).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 02:34 pm: Edit

The game is vastly improved by the expansion rules, even if you just pick and choose the ones you and your opponent like; this is coming from someone who steadfastly avoided them for decades; they really don't particularly slow things down, and having more substitutions (and alternate build schedules) makes things more interesting, for my money.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 05:08 pm: Edit

You cannot replace an ECL on the schedule with an NCL, unfortunately.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 05:26 pm: Edit

After some further back and forth, where we ended up is that the Y175+ change to the Fed schedule is a change to their schedule from an expansion, not an allowable substitution. So they can "only" produce 14FF. They did a couple more conversions and supported a homeless Gorn.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 07:08 am: Edit

Alliance turn 14 op move is well underway. The Feds are attacking a lot of Klingon and Lyran fleets in Fed space, including some with piles of crips.

The Hydrans have pushed further into Hydran space. Paul has cut the vast majority out of supply. But they do have typical Hydran fighter counts and also their Exp. fleet special supply tug. They will also have pretty big reserves. So being OOS may not turn out to be as bad as one might expect.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 07:04 pm: Edit

The op move continues. The Alliance has created a lot of battle hexes against portions of the Coalition fleet. However, the Coalition is very strong in Kzinti space, and there the Alliance is only attacking planet 1902. Even that is a major commitment, involving most of the Kzinti fleet, and also some Feds.

There is also a lightweight attack against Klingon planet 1916. A strong Klingon reserve could go there and would crush the attack easily. A stronger attack on Klingon BATS 2014 could be stopped by the same reserve. Obviously it can't do both.

In many cases, the Alliance is simply attacking a fleet with a stronger fleet. But this is actually reversed at captured Fed planet 2610, where the Feds are attacking with 16SE against 26. The attacking fleet has a significant fighter advantage, so holding it could be costly for the Coalition.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 01:48 pm: Edit

A14 op move is done. The Hydrans have five battle hexes in four different provinces. As mentioned previously, their main fleet will end up out of supply -- but also much closer to Hydrax. My gut is the change, while risky, will benefit the Alliance overall.

Most of the Fed, Kzinti, and Gorn battles are simply attacks on the Coalition fleet. The Feds and Gorns are also attacking a Romulan BATS/FRD combo, and the Gorns have another BATS assault. The Feds are also attacking a Klingon BATS and a Klingon minor planet.

Paul has four unpinned reserves that can reach battle hexes. One of them could use its move to unpin portions of two pinned reserves. So overall, reserve movement will probably reinforce the Coalition in four or five places.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 06:28 pm: Edit

Reserves have been dispatched. Paul is letting the Klingon minor planet fall. This lets him send portions of two reserves to central Fed space. One will help the Klingons hold planet 2610. The other will turn the tables on a province raider pickoff attempt.

The Romulans are letting their BATS and FRD die. They might have died even with a reserve. Two of their reserves are holding conquered planets they would otherwise have lost. The third is turning the tables on a Gorn fleet that previously had an advantage in an open space battle.

The Lyran reserve is trying to hold a conquered minor planet.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 01:37 pm: Edit

Haven't commented on dice for a while and this turn there has been some mixed luck shall we say?

The good dice - cloaks are 6 passed and 1 failure.

I even passed a modest chance of a pursuit - but failed the more important one with another 6 (16 pursuit rolls for me so far and I have rolled 5 6's).

William failed a pursuit roll.... which meant a cripple D7C survived.

No captured ships for either side.

ESSC has been mixed - but probably fairish overall (got lucky in 1 battle and unlucky in another, the rest was average).

But that's about it for dice.

Alliance have had 7 out of 8 successful pursuits.

Averages are (36 rounds)

VBIR 4
Coalition 3.64
Alliance 3.94

So not only have the Alliance again rolled close to 10% higher, but this turn, the timing I think has been absolutely brutal to the Coalition.

Generally when it's not relevant, I roll well, when its needed, I roll horrible - and the Alliance is the other way round.

A good example being where I could have 'mugged' some Alliance forces where my reserves went to - I rolled a 1 (and then missed the pursuit where it was worthwhile to pursue).

What has been particularly painful though has been where I could have sacrificed 1 (or 2 hulls n 1 battle) hulls and do no damage - or put up a full line and on average probably cripple 3 ships and cripple 1 or 2 Alliance ships - and I have fought and been smashed by the dice (generally lots of 5 v 1 or 6 v 2 rolls) - cost of fighting has been very high.

Lets hope the last few battles give me some of the Alliance luck!

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Ambitious, clinically insane, or whatever you want to call it -- I counted the fleets again, as of the end of turn 14. Here are the results. This is just counting ships. Ignored are fighters, mothballs, and captured ships that have not yet been converted:

	uncrippled	crip	total
L	118	56	174
K	228	163	391
R	117	81	198
Coalition	463	300	763

Z	54	1	55
H	58	10	68
F	187	66	253
G	69	23	92
Total	368	100	468

So the Coalition has 95 more uncrippled ships and 200 more crips for a total lead of 295 ships.

Compared with the end of turn 12 totals, the stability is remarkable. The Coalition has 4 fewer healthy ships and 31 more crips, for a net gain of 27. The Alliance has 4 more healthy ships and 20 more crips, for a net gain of 24.

Some changes don't show up in the numbers. The Kzinti shipyard is now finished, and the Hydran shipyard is 29EP further along. The Alliance has lost more hardpoints -- maybe 10 BATS vs. 5 for the Coalition, 1SB vs none, and I think 2 planets conquered vs. 2 devastated for the Coalition. Lastly, the Coalition has surely gained in terms of relative fleet quality.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, January 19, 2020 - 04:47 am: Edit

Well, I only think there is only 2 captured ships off hand, not yet converted (and they are both 'good' - Gorns have the FAL and Lyrans the Kz CVS).

28 Coalition and 9 Alliance Hulls (looked around the edge on the 'map' - no Gorn's died?) died on Alliance turn 14 - plus 2 BATS (and 2 PDU's) - so a very good turn for the Allance.

I think the Alliance tooks a lot less cripples too.

The aggressive 'land' grab (or should that be 'space grab'?) I did on Coalition on turn 14 has cost me a lot more than I expected it would.

William has raised a good point - a lack of small hulls is starting to hurt the Kzinti and Romulans - so indirectly the quality of fleets has increased (the largest hulls to die on A14 was 1 CC for each side).

And next turn is the last 100% turn for the Coalition, Kzinti and Hydrans as they drop to 75% - which the Feds don't need to worry about until turn 30.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, January 19, 2020 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Turn A14 is done. Five Fed and Kzinti reserves are in the Federation, mostly in the center. The size ranges from 4-7 ships.

The Fed 3rd fleet has been reinforced. It now has 22 ships with four carriers, including a CVA. The idea is to threaten the Klingon interior. Against the smaller threats previous posed by the 3rd fleet, Paul has generally allowed it to kill a hardpoint or two. It will be interesting to see if the bigger fleet provokes a bigger defense.

The Feds have started leaving "anti-province-raider" ships in some places. In other words, if a province was empty, formerly I was just letting it get raided. This is actually helped by the small size of the reserves. Sending a full reserve on a province raider rescue mission is probably overkill that will lead to the loss of a hardpoint. But with small reserves, it could make sense.

The last Fed reserve is a 3-ship reserve in Gorn space. The Gorns really need the flexibility this turn as several of their planets could come under attack. They also have their own reserves there. One is 4 ships; the other is 8. They still have 9 ships at the Fed 6th fleet SB. They wouldn't mind having these back, but last turn's attack plans didn't allow it.

The Hydran reserves are 10 and 8 ships. This is important as they have some out of supply fleets.

As usual, the Fed SB on the Kzinti border are held by the Kzinti.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 19, 2020 - 04:12 pm: Edit

>>The Feds have started leaving "anti-province-raider" ships in some places. In other words, if a province was empty, formerly I was just letting it get raided.>>

By "raided", you mean "captured or disrupted", and not "actually raided by the raid rules that are in Advanced Ops", correct?

(i.e. you aren't using the raid rules, yeah?)