To Convert A Ship to a Larger Hull Or Not? (Rev 1)
Thomas Mathews
USS Georgia

Many Lyran players convert their FFs to DWs and DWSs starting from Turn 1 and continue this process throughout the game. In addition to these conversions there are the DD to CW or NCA, CL to BC and CA to DN conversions. The Gorns may do the much the same with their DD to BD, HD to CM, and CL to BC/CC conversions. The Kzintis are a little more limited in that may do the same with their CVL to CVS/BCV or BC to CVS/BCH/BCV conversions but not with their FF, DD or CL hulls. All the other empires except the Tholians can convert CWs to NCAs. While larger ships are better at providing compot and absorbing damage the cost may not be worth the cost of conversion. Consider that the Lyrans can convert a maximum of 5 FFs to DW or DW variant on a given turn that they have an FF at each starbase, more once they have built their minor and major conversion facilities (450.12), before they build any FFs. Assuming each FF is converted to a DW, no variant, this is 3 EPs this can total 15 EPs a turn. DD to CW and CW to NCA are also 3 EPs each. In the above cases the 3 EPs buy you 3 points of extra damage to kill the ship and an increase of 2 for command purposes. Conversions of CWs to NCCs are a little better as you get an increase of 3 vs 2 for command purposes. You also increase the cost to repair said ships. The newly converted DW now cost 1.5 to repair vs 1 for the original FF hull. Conversions to carriers also require more planning as you more than likely need to provide escorts for those carriers to participate in combat.
The conversion of ships that become a command rating 9 or 10 ship make practical sense when you need another command ship in a given sector or to command a reserve fleet. Spending EPs to get more compot is not always the wisest way to spend your EPs. You never know when you will need to upgrade a base, or add PDUs to a colony previously thought to be safe from attack. The EPs spend on conversions to larger ships can also be spent on needed infrastructure. That infrastructure includes convoys for supply, bases for supply and repair, and ground bases for garrisoning captured planets.
NOTE: Some conversions maybe limited to 1 per turn or 1 per year by other rules not listed above. Always check the rules and SITs for such limitations before spending EPs.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, December 21, 2019 - 09:04 am: Edit

Deleted by author. Duplicate post.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar2) on Saturday, December 21, 2019 - 06:49 pm: Edit

Hmm, what's the break point again?

When isn't 15 EP for 10 COMPOT (& 2 CP) not worth it?

[Note the Feds do not have a FF/DW, they have the FF/FFB]

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, December 21, 2019 - 08:37 pm: Edit

I think it's a better idea to use the money to build extra shipyards, generally DWs and such build in shipyards are cheaper to get than converting FFs to DWs and such.

If the Lyrans can build 5 DW hulls a turn it is unlikely that they'll need to do much if any FF to DW conversions and so on. Generally this is true for other empires as well.

***

The extra command rating of a small ship over a smaller ship is rarely going to be a factor unless for some reason there just isn't already a ship with the same or better command rating.

Now if 15 EP was getting 10 compot by upgrading 5 7+ compot ships then that's much more interesting, though generally the cost is higher.

By chris upson (Misanthropope) on Sunday, December 22, 2019 - 04:01 am: Edit

the minor SY route can't bear any fruit before turn 7. coalition have a quality problem in the initial OOB, and density 8 battle-groups serve to palliate those, but that gap closes through normal builds by maybe y172.

CW to NCC (or DDW) is exactly the conversion you're talking about, richard. I'm not entirely convinced that by y175 the threshold for "interesting" hasn't moved up to 8+ compot ships, tho.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat2) on Sunday, December 22, 2019 - 10:29 am: Edit

Thomas, I'd try to break the first paragraph somewhere. It's awfully long. Also the Kzinti sentence is missing a word:

The Kzintis are a little more limited in that THEY may do the same . . .

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Wednesday, January 01, 2020 - 05:00 pm: Edit

To expand on this, I think it is also worth pointing out that performing a FF/DD to DW/CW conversion for the Lyrans is the only conversion that SB will make. If maxing these conversions out (spending the 15 EPs) you're not converting anything else. Also the return on investment is 2 compot for 3 EPs, versus the 1:1 for CA to CC, not to mention you still have 2 conversion points after a CA/CC conversion. As Richard points out, the increase in CR with conversions also is probably a moot point unless you are getting a CR10 ship.
Also spending money on these conversions don't increase your ship count, whereas building a minor SY does. So that is also a consideration.
On the Kzinti side, converting BCs and CVLs to CVs is a no-brainer. But, that is a major conversion. BC to CVL, however, is a 2-point conversion that can be done at a starbase, and still have a point left over to convert a heavy escort. With an EFF subbed for the SB frigate production, you can get a medium carrier group out of your 3 conversion points at the SB, without involving the main shipyard at all. The bang for your buck makes the Lyran FF to DW SB conversion pale in comparison.
This is not a critique of the original post, just adding fuel to the fire.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Thursday, March 12, 2020 - 02:05 am: Edit

Survey – Double or Nothing
Alan De Salvio
USS California

Previous tactical notes have identified the value of using a Prime Team on mission 522.44; from a cost recovery standpoint and using average die rolls, allocating a 5 EP Prime Team to this mission will pay for itself in eight to ten turns, and will result in increased income in four to five turns (relative to the base survey ships).

Rule 542 provides two other options to the player: additional survey ships, and the heavy war destroyer survey module (HDWQ). Both options have an expense, so the question is, is the expense worth it? In every case, the increased income comes later in the war… when you are exhausted. All analyses are for a 34 turn General War, purchase the survey ships as new production and do not account for wounded or killed Prime Teams.

The Lyrans have the choice first. They can expect to generate 332 additional EPs with their base survey (from 12 new provinces – five new provinces by Turn 10). Adding a Prime Team adds 46.5 EPs – clearly profitable at marginal cost. Devoting one additional cruiser to survey duty on Turn 1 adds another 73.5 EPs (five provinces by T7) and pays for itself and the PT in 11 turns. For two (the second on T2) add another 68 EPs (pays in 12 turns, five provinces by T6). For three (built on T4) add another 46.5 EPs (pays in 13 turns). HDWQ arrives too late, and never pays for itself, so don’t bother. Is an extra 234.5 EPs worth three cruisers off the board from the first four turns (and a 53 EP expenditure)?

The Klingons may also choose on Turn 1. They can expect to generate only 218 EPs (from nine new provinces, five by Turn 16) – the Klingons find new income in other ways. Adding a PT adds 53 EPs – obey those Tac Notes. Devoting one additional cruiser on T1: +88 EPs, breakeven on T10 (five provinces by T9). For two (the second on T2) +70 EPs, breakeven on T11 (five provinces by T8). For three (built on T4) +59.5 EPs, breakeven on T12 (five provinces by T7). HDWQ arrives too late and never pays for itself. Is an extra 270.5 EPs, or doubling your money, worth three D6s?
The Kzinti need every cruiser I mean carrier but may depend on off-map income. They can expect to generate 332 EPs from 12 new provinces (five by T10). Adding a PT adds 46.5 EPs, but we already knew that. Devoting one additional cruiser on T1: +73.5 EPs, breakeven on T11 (five provinces by T7). For two (the second on T2) +68 EPs, breakeven on T12 (five provinces by T6). For three (the third on T4) +46.5 EPs, breakeven on T13. The HDWQ arrives too late and never pays for itself. 234.5 EPs, off-map and safe, for just three cruisers – just 53 EPs to generate 181.5 profit and almost double your survey income!

The Hydrans are even more dependent on off-map income. They can expect to generate 292 EPs from 12 new provinces (five by T12). Adding a PT adds 40.5 EPs – do it. Devoting one additional cruiser on T3 (do not wait for the PGR on T12): +66.5 EPs, breakeven on T13 (five provinces by T9). A second on T4 – assuming you can get it off-map of course: +59.5 EPs, breakeven on T13 (five provinces by T8). A third may be difficult to build and get off-map on T6, but if you can +41.5 EPs, breakeven on T14 (five provinces by T8). The HDWQ arrives too late and does not pay for itself, however, the LNHQ can survey on T14 and does pay for itself (+24 if it is the only ship added). The LNHQ could save the Hydrans that third survey cruiser (and -22.5 EPs), but they still breakeven by T15. Max survey adds 207.5 EPs to a Hydran economy normally scraping the barrel – for 50 EPs. This is a great deal, and Coalition players should make every effort to stop this from happening.

The Federation is the master of exploration. They can expect to generate an astounding 580 EPs from 19 new provinces (five by T11) with their base seven SRs. Adding a PT +30.5 EPs and gets that fifth province by T10 – this is a no-brainer. However, the Federation has many options – for example, what about the 3xCVL and COV? The Feds have already paid for their infrastructure, what if they send them right back out for survey? +196.5 EPs and fifth province by T9, increased relative survey income on T8! The HDWQ arrives too late and does not pay for itself (but could sub a CVL back on to the board). For 16 EP, the Feds could buy a COV on T7: +44.5 EPs and breakeven by T24. For another 16 EP COV on T8: +37 EPs and breakeven on T24. The third COV on T10: +36 EPs and breakeven on T24. Maximum effort Feds generate +344.5 EPs from survey and +12 additional provinces, all for 53 EPs – they can sextuple their money!

The Romulans can always use more income, but of course they have work to do on map first. Once they get their empire sorted, they can send their three survey ships off-map and expect to generate 117 EPs from nine new provinces (five by T23), income they will badly need since exhaustion strikes right when they start exploring off-map. The HDWQ still does not pay for itself, so ignore it. The PT gambit is, as always, worthwhile for +20 EPs and brings the fifth province on T21. Another SPS on T11 should get out there at the right time (at a cost of 13 total EPs): +31.5 EPs, breakeven on T23, fifth province on T20. The fifth SR, an SPS on T12: +25.5 EPs, breakeven on T25, fifth province on T19. The sixth SR, another SPS on T14: +24.5 EPs, breakeven on T25, fifth province on T18. Max surveying will generate +101.5 EPs from survey and six additional new provinces, all for 44 EPs. The Romulans have plenty of on-map space for colonies and on-map surveying, but the off-map area is completely safe (so long as the ISC are neutral).

The Gorn do not want to find Paravians off-map, apparently. They can expect to generate all of 139 EPs from seven new provinces (five on T26). The PT does help for +33 EPs (and the fifth province on T23). The HDWQ does not help and should be ignored. A third SR on T12: +52 and breakeven on T21 (fifth province on T20). A fourth SR on T14: +41.5, breakeven on T22 (fifth province on T19). The fifth SR on T16: +30.5, breakeven on T24 (fifth province on T18). Max surveying will generate +157 EPs from survey and seven additional new provinces, at a cost of 53 EPs. The Gorn can double their money, as well.

Over the course of the General War, Rules 522 and 542 will allow every empire to at least double their money… if they can spare the cruisers.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, March 12, 2020 - 06:28 am: Edit

Alan, the Hydrans can't build a PIC (RN Survey Cruiser) until Y171, which is turn 6. See the SIT.

The SR (Lancer Survey Ship) is considered to be obsolete and more can't be built. See (542.16).

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Thursday, March 12, 2020 - 09:45 am: Edit

The SIT does not say obsolete for the SR, but 542.16 certainly does. I was looking at the SIT!

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, March 12, 2020 - 09:44 pm: Edit

ADS: This is a good summary tactic. I feel like it could be simplified in its presentation by using a table or bullets for each item.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Friday, March 13, 2020 - 02:50 pm: Edit

It is not much of a tactic except for the Hydrans, which Turtle has pointed out is not legal. I need to scrub it for obsolete SRs and take a long look at the poor Hydrans (I think they are screwed, which is of course the point). You are certainly correct that it looks like a spreadsheet, because it really IS a spreadsheet.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, March 13, 2020 - 07:53 pm: Edit

Alan, you might want to look through the published Tac Notes. I know I only wrote about the value of adding a PT to survey duty, but not adding more survey ships. Dale Fields did the work on adding survey ships, but no PT back in 2007/2009 time frame. I don't know if he wrote anything for a tac note on it or not. I used his work as the basis for mine because of the PT.

If Dale had any published it would be in the CL #36 to #40 timeframe as a best guess.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Saturday, March 14, 2020 - 01:45 am: Edit

There’re exists a chart, somewhere. I used it to set up my last survey strategy. It was nice to read thus one though even if the PIC is obs.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Sunday, March 15, 2020 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Turtle, there are definitely some published Tac Notes on survey - when I scrub the note, I will list them, and if mine is duplicative I will withdraw it. Most deal with on-map survey, high-risk survey and pulling ships OUT of survey. I think the max survey concept has not been covered in detail though.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, March 15, 2020 - 02:44 pm: Edit

I would be surprised if that was the case, but if not more power to you.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, April 30, 2020 - 07:02 pm: Edit

The Lyran Fourth Diplomat Corps
SW Frazier USS Ohio

With Strategic Operations, the Lyrans have an option of building their fourth diplomat on their first turn. Now, some would say that the cost (10 EP and a prime team) may seem like a lot to divert from the war effort, but there is some returns that can make this a bit more palatable. First, the DIP is sent to the Federation for trade (540.23), which returns half his initial cost (5 EP) for Turns #2-6. Now on Turn #6, it’s time to pull him out (unless you know on good [Klingon] authority) that the invasion has been delayed.

Where do send him comes with two answers, Sherman’s Planet (1910) for influence (540.25) or to a captured Kzinti planet for bonus income (540.21). [Well, there’s also getting a fifth DIP to do both, but that’s 20 EPs!] Going to Sherman’s Planet comes with the odds being in your favor but that’s only 33% to you, 17% for the Feds, and 50% of staying neutral. Even worse (if you succeed), that planetary income won’t become available until Turn #10 due to (602.14). One massive upside is that if a base has been setup in 1307/1407 or 1411, the planet does becomes part of the supply chain and more forces than a regular Expeditionary Force (411.7) can be moved in [including PDUs, though the (411.74) cost must be paid before Lyran forces can be used in Federation territory]. But this is dependent on gaining the planet before Turn 10.

Sending the fourth DIP to a captured Kzinti planet gains half of that planet’s income as a ‘bonus’ (540.21), meaning if Klindai is available, there is no EP lose (over the diplomatic income from the Federation). One major drawback is that any Kzinti planet will be vulnerable to raids, E&S missions, and/or ‘normal’ attacks that could force the DIP off the planet (and ending the EP bonus). While normal attacks can be dealt with other forces, raids can be dealt with a few pre-cautions. For a ‘high end’ raid (say the Kzinti DNL+PT), there needs to be two fighter squadrons on the planet to negate any action against the DIP . A MB with fighters and one PDU gives 19 defense under (310.0) that drops the raid to 2 casualties (at best) which is covered by the 2 ship equivalents of fighters (two PDUs gives a similar defense, but lacks the EW modifier a base has). On the offensive side, the damage given (limited to 16) should do two casualties (on average) against the raider, making it very dangerous for him. A drone raid cannot be done as the DIP’s conveying ship is uncrippled (320.331) and a fighter raid usually has fewer attack factors than the DNL+PT until later in the war (aided by oversized squadrons and/or PFs). As for prime team missions, there are two. (534.223)’s Sabotaging the DIP’s ship (as it has no crippled side), and (534.232)’s assassination. Because of the integral prime team, the (534.223) mission has a +1 modifier (-1 for size-class 4, +2 defensive PT), while (534.232) has a +2 modifier (defensive PT). This gives a 1-in-6 (16.7%) chance for (534.223) (2-4 on 2D6), and 1-in-12 (8.3%) chance for (534.232) (2-3 on 2 D6). Either missions costing 2 EP per attempt (beware the Federation as they have lots of EP).

The diplomacy bonus (0.5 EP for a minor, 1.0 for a major) adds up over time (but is subject to exhaustion). It will take 10 turns to finish paying off the initial DIP cost of 10 EP [Klindai (1502) would pay this off in 5 turns]. However, due to (540.21)’s legacy clause, the bonus can be received from two planets (doubling the bonus). After spending two (or more) turns on the planet, switch to another captured planet for (at least) two turns and receive double income (one for the DIP and the other for the legacy) before switching back to original or another captured planet. This can continue as long as there are two planets to switch between. [Can generates 5 EP in 6 turns (barring enemy action)].

The Klingons could do something similar (if they can come up with 10 ‘spare’ EP), though they may just go to the LDR for (540.23)’s steady income.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, May 22, 2020 - 03:24 pm: Edit

To Convert A Ship to a Larger Hull Or Not? (Rev 2)
Thomas Mathews
USS Georgia

Many Lyran players convert their FFs to DWs and DWSs starting from Turn 1 and continue this process throughout the game. In addition to these conversions there are the DD to CW or NCA, CL to BC and CA to DN conversions. The Gorns may do the much the same with their DD to BD, HD to CM, and CL to BC/CC conversions. The Kzintis are a little more limited in that they may do the same with their CVL to CVS/BCV or BC to CVS/BCH/BCV conversions but not with their FF, DD or CL hulls. All the other empires except the Tholians can convert CWs to NCAs. While larger ships are better at providing compot and absorbing damage the cost may not be worth the cost of conversion.

Consider that the Lyrans can convert a maximum of 5 FFs to DW or DW variant on a given turn that they have an FF at each starbase, more once they have built their minor and major conversion facilities (450.12), before they build any FFs. Assuming each FF is converted to a DW, no variant, this is 3 EPs this can total 15 EPs a turn. DD to CW and CW to NCA are also 3 EPs each. In the above cases the 3 EPs buy you 3 points of extra damage to kill the ship and an increase of 2 for command purposes. Conversions of CWs to NCCs are a little better as you get an increase of 3 vs 2 for command purposes. You also increase the cost to repair said ships. The newly converted DW now cost 1.5 to repair vs 1 for the original FF hull. Conversions to carriers also require more planning as you more than likely need to provide escorts for those carriers to participate in combat.

The conversion of ships that become a command rating 9 or 10 ship make practical sense when you need another command ship in a given sector or to command a reserve fleet. Spending EPs to get more compot is not always the wisest way to spend your EPs. You never know when you will need to upgrade a base, or add PDUs to a colony previously thought to be safe from attack. The EPs spend on conversions to larger ships can also be spent on needed infrastructure. That infrastructure includes convoys for supply, bases for supply and repair, and ground bases for garrisoning captured planets.

NOTE: Some conversions maybe limited to 1 per turn or 1 per year by other rules not listed above. Always check the rules and SITs for such limitations before spending EPs.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Friday, May 22, 2020 - 05:14 pm: Edit

A great tac note. NCAs are quite a bit later in the war, aren't they? Circa Y175? So it isn't a fair comparison with FF->DW. I request an early war conversion tac note, and a circa 175 conversion tac note. Some folks don't play much 175 and later, so the options are fresher.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, May 22, 2020 - 05:56 pm: Edit

I think I have an earlier tac note on the Lyran DD->NCA conversions. It's a good deal.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, July 09, 2020 - 08:02 pm: Edit

Building the Unbuildable - Lawrence Bergen - California

Hydran players have long avoided building the CR with their 5/2 Attack and Defense rating. These units can take a hit but are expensive to repair. Take advantage of this: For the repair Depot is the solution to this issue. Building 1-2 extra of these with the intent of soaking damage and rolling them to the offmap depot to set up a conga-line of repair can be almost as effective as taking replaceable fighter damage. (Note: a similar point can be made for the Rom SNB also.)

Let's turn our attention to the underwhelming Hydran HN frigate (likely the first ships players drop from the build schedule). This struggling ship can be turned into a more palatable Saracen FFL for 1pt, meaning you can do 3 of them at each Starbase, hardening your weaker SC4 segment of the fleet. Although less effective, crippled HNs should fill in the gaps when you don't have a CR in the DLR holding box, maximize the free repair!

As they come off the repair line and maybe your OM-SB is idle or hasnt used all of its capacity, or just maybe your Engineer Unit has just built you a minor conversion facility (for free) in the offmap, uprgrade that HN to SA. Combining free repairs and cheap upgrades can go a long way to making a weak early war fleet stronger.


Feedback on how to make this more concise or additional ships that benefit from this approach are welcome.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 09, 2020 - 10:21 pm: Edit

It is unfortunate that to do this, the Hydrans must give up something else, as they have many nice things to build or convert that are higher in priority.

Generally when playing as the Hydran, I never do CA->CC conversions, which would seem a better use of funds than upgrading HNs, even though I never do it.

In a recent game, I built my schedule on turn three and 4 PDU and a Monitor-V (and activated two ships) and did 5 LN-DE conversions and had a bit more EP than usual (due to diplomats starting the game deployed) which washes out the EPs that one normally wouldn't have to spend on activating ships. I also bought a CP. I ended up borrowing almost the max allowed using ADS.

On turn three, none of these things, imo, is worth giving up to do HN conversions.

On later turns, I anticipate having less EPs to spend and more things to spend them on (potentially repairs).

Things I didn't spend money on on turn three include FCRs, true carriers, fighters for FRDs for extra capital defense, a scout pallet, or PDUs for a planet in the capital system other than Hydrax. If I had EPs to spare, I might save them to purchase a second ENG if there wasn't anything of higher priority (which there always is).

While players might choose to do such conversions, I can't really imagine any practical situation where it was advantageous to do so vs. saving the EPs for later use (at the least).

***

About all CRs are notably good at is slightly bigger adhoc outer escorts to soak a bit more directed damage or to raid Klingon provinces that can only call up a G2 to oppose you (where at least they are +2 vs that G2).

I'm sure there are other things, but none come to mind atm.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, July 10, 2020 - 08:36 pm: Edit

The Starving Economy is always the issue, and choices have to be made. This gives the Hydran a few more options. I wasn't specifically focused on T3 but the 1st's SB does have 3xHN stationed there.

I suppose it may be an equivalent shift (EP to Compot boost) to do the CA>CC over this but there is nothing that will save the cruisers from a determined Coalition force whose target is the cruisers in every situation outside the capital. The SA on the other hand is a small ship so the likelihood of DirDam against a lesser ship is lower.

Like you I do the 4PDUs, but T3 I wouldn't waste money on the Monitor (or a V pallet) or CP but to each their own. The DE is useful but that many on T3 seems excessive unless you are building another Tug. I did build some FFTs to deploy the 1st MB so to free up the Tug for battle.

T4+ I also agree on the early true carriers, or additional PDUs, and the ENG comes a bit to late for my liking (and I am a huge fan of the ENG). FCRs and Aux Carriers are possible expenditures. Jury is out on the FRD fighter modules.

Its a good option for the CR against the G2s but my last two opponents stacked the starting POLs on their border BATS in case of an upstart Hydran, and once they blew down the Hydran border the raid distance receded.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 10, 2020 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Aux carriers imo are vulnerable to loss for the Hydrans to spend EPs on them. They're certainly useful over Hydrax (and maybe a well defended SB) but the ones you already have are enough for that. An LAV costs 16 EP worth of resources, imo not as good a use as that first MON-V (14 EPs) over Hydrax or (if you have a MON-V doing that already) adding 12 fighter factors to your two FRDs at Hydrax. If you have all those things and you still have EPs to burn on HN conversions or LAVs, your opponent is doing something wrong. :p

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, July 10, 2020 - 10:09 pm: Edit

Haha. This time anyway... I refused to cave to his RESVs and he set up for the Expedition Prevention Def so he couldn't get deep attacks on T4C. The Lyran OTOH they felt the Hyd presence. The evil C is up north sacking the Kz Capital as we speak.

Oh you are putting that MonV over the Cap Planet? I thought you were parking is at 0416 having already placed the other two...got it, yeah thats better at least

The LAV trade (vs MonV) is for 2 EPs I get 12 reaction fighters if I need them (and the LAV cant be hit at 3-1 in this case). Options. Right now beacuse they are smacking up the kitty litter box I may be able to keep them out of the capital one more turn and the extra SEQ and fighter count helps. Sure for the 16 there are other ways to drive up ship count but the LAV is also a nasty Line item over the capital.