| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - 07:19 am: Edit |
Graham
1) Fair enough on 1401 (the Kzinti really need a CVA..... or Carrier Battle Tug so it can be escorted)
2) Hence why sending a modest number of good ships is better than sending a lot of rubbish - the Romulans can out attrition the Allies due to Fighters and EW.
Feds should be prioritising the Defence of 4402....
3) If the Coalition can capture all 3 Gorn Capital hexes - 617 does become an auto game win for the Coaition - so it does become more relevant to defend well.
The problem or issue is that 10 PDU's do not really slow the Coalition down - as the Coalition has more than enough good ships to attack two systems at the same time - the Hydrans probably don't have enough good ships to defend two systems at the same time (Counting a good ship as being 10 Compot plus).
So 54 Ep's spent on 6 PDU's could allow 6 RN's to be built over 6 CU's (i.e. downgraded Cruiser hull builds).
And 6 x RN's has 63 compot (yes, 24 Compot of CU's are lost, but if your using CU's defending 617, you have already lost) versus 54 additional Compot for 6 PDU's.
So 10 PDU's will take 3 or 4 rounds to due..... 4 PDU's and 6 RN's will take 7 or 8 rounds to die.
(if 1 ship a turn is directed on).
But it's not just that - by giving more Ep's to better ships - you can end up with more killer lines (the Paladin for example or Monitor with Fighter pods) over the Capital Planet.
Is the Hydrans could get a SB over a second planet 10 PDU's would make it much stronger - but the Hydrans probably can't afford the SB and PDU's...
In other words - extra non-Capital planet PDU's are not worth their bang for the buck - unless you can get a SB their too - and killer Ship lines are better than modest ship lines and easy to kill PDU's (as your compot drops alot quicker)*
* - The Coalition can also be evil in sending their best line to the Planet with just 10 PDU's - and kill afew PDU's - and then trade heavy hulls....and then go to the Capital planet when a sub-optimal Hydran line can only be used - as the good ships are dead*.
* - i.e. 3 x Pal, 2 x LGE, 2 x BattleTug, 3 x Command Cruisers, 3 x RN and an Extra Scout or Two.
If the LGE's and BattleTugs have been killed over the other planet - thats 20+ Compot lost - which might convert a 'your line is dead' too 'which 3 ships survive' type of thing on a good roll.
If it's to win the game, it might not make much difference - but it does mean the Coalition has to win on the first full attempt (which could allow the Alliance a chance in Kzinti and Gorn space).
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - 09:25 am: Edit |
>> In other words - extra non-Capital planet PDU's are not worth their bang for the buck - unless you can get a SB there too
Is it really that valuable to SB/PDU fortify another planet in the home hex?
The Hydrans are at a disadvantage as the only other planet in the Capital system is a Minor. So if they fortify that one they are only getting SB/6PDU.
If the Hydrans choose to fortify a Major in another system, then they could SB/10PDU, although that would complicate defense as the Hydrans would have to make careful choices about the static system defense fleets vs. the mobile defense fleet, wary of a Coalition all in on the Capital planet itself.
Let's say the Hydrans magically labor to put up that SB/6PDU on the capital system Minor and they then can (presumably?) defend that planet from devastation. The difference in EPs/turn would only be 2 (from 1 back to 3) for that Minor, once it recovers.
It hardly seems worth it?
I would think that any EPs spent in any fashion would most productively 100% contribute to the defense of the home planet itself, which is the lynchpin of keeping the entire hex (and shipyard) in Alliance hands. So once the home planet itself is SB/20PDU, the defensive choice boils down to buying more ships (as Paul clearly articulates the advantages of) or buying another base.
So my hypothetical question is: Is it ever worth buying (or trying to buy) another base (of any type) for an SB/20PDU home planet?
Or have the "focus of the attack" rules effectively made additional bases (of any type) not useful?
--Mike
| By Gary Quick (Northquick) on Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - 03:38 pm: Edit |
As the Alliance, I always put up a MB over the home planet. I have them already at start, so it seems the best place to use one right away.
Sure, it's only 4compot per round (as the distant base), or at least until the Attacker attacks it rather than the SB/planet. So, small thing really, but seems worth it to me.
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - 04:01 pm: Edit |
Existing MB's are 'free'* - but on their own, will mot make much difference.
* - Kzinti ones are probably more useful, as they can be built in Fed space and extend the Kzinti supply grid - other than 1 MB for the Hydrans in 518 (helps avoid having to retreat to 718 IMHO) - not sure if the 2nd Hydran MB would ever get built!!)
But on Mike's question - my answer would be 'no' for the Alliance.
The BATS>SB upgrade is far too easy to kill - and the EP cost of the upgrade, even if it could be safely built, I think could be better spent 
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, November 25, 2021 - 02:34 am: Edit |
Graham
Sorry to say this again, but you want to slow the game down - as your seem to barrel through the Alliance turns really really quickly and huge mistakes are happening.
"Alliance Turn 16 is over. The Alliance is mostly hunkering in the capitals this turn, although there is a large and dangerous Federation fleet (50+ ships) in 3203 and another decent fleet in 2713 (33 ships)."
Why are 50+ ships in 3203?
With 33 in 2713.... that might explain why the Alliance attacks seems to do very little.
i.e. Huge forces seem to be defending/attacking irrelevant areas and key areas are getting ignored.
The Alliance at this stage should have 4 aims
1) Try to defend the Gorn Capital
2) Defend Earth
3) Defend Hydrax
4) Try to threaten liberating 1401.
I am guessing your Son has not yet learned to stop reacting to your previous turns moves - and is basically trying to chase your shadow (and by what appears to rapidly ending A16, you son can't see he is reacting to your previous moves and not your possible future moves) .
Those 50+ ships are almost certainly going to do nothing on C17 - as you will probably ignore that area.
That might be what your Son wants (persuading an enemy to go elsewhere is a good idea), but those ships could be sent to help the Kzinti or Gorn and might have a far great value.
(Yes, protecting a route to the Fed Off Map area to get the Eps out is good, but sending tugs or Convoys to pick them up is a temporary lower cost solution).
So thats over 80 ships not being used for the 4 Key Alliance aims - I can't see the map, so there may be a reason why they are there - but it seems an awful lot of ships doing something which is not going to ensure the game continues.
So can we please go back 2 steps?
1) Was the Alliance able to open a Strategic Movement route to the Gorn Capital?
2) What new ships was sent to the Gorn capital?
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, November 25, 2021 - 01:59 pm: Edit |
I don't know Paul, from my perspective I think it's quite wonderful to see two new players (one quite young indeed!) sharing their first F&E game with us, warts and all. It's not perfect, and they are sticking with it, plowing into the middle stages of the game and learning as they go. And F&E is such a challenging, complicated, and lengthy game indeed. Hats off and thanks to them!
And, if Trent would like to post questions or requests for advice, I think there is enough F&E experience here to help him along a bit. It is his first game after all!
--Mike
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, November 25, 2021 - 03:51 pm: Edit |
Mike - Trent might be too young to have a log on or access due to US or State Laws on Internet Access?? (Silicon Valley did a good episode about the firm breaching a new age consent law and racking up Billions in fines )
It's probably fair to raise this point :-
"The Romulans pile into the capital hex 4402 for the Gorns, where they now have successfully leveraged their repair capacity over multiple turns to get "ahead". The Romulans have almost 200 ships and 130 fighters, against 79 Gorn and Federation ships with approximately 40 fighters."
The most vulnerable Alliance Capital is defended by just 79 ships - and over 80 Alliance ships are sitting on a minor planet or deep space.
Not all 80 might have been able to get there - but
when the Coalition are getting a significant tactical advantage in a key area - the Alliance has to react.
Yes it's a learning experience, but it's probably fair to say it's not only steeper for the Alliance, but Trent might not have access to other player comments and suggestions - as the Alliance seems to make the same mistakes turn after turn.
Hence the suggestion to just slow the game down, to allow Trent to view the map and take time to plan any defences (which may or may not be happening, but the speed* of the game perhaps is telling me parts of the turn are done very quickly and additional major mistakes can happen).
* - As an example - we had A16 combats posted and rapidly afterwards we have C17 Economics being posted.
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, November 25, 2021 - 04:04 pm: Edit |
Well, the speed of posting has very little to do with anything other than "When I have time to catch up on posting what has happened." rather than anything to do with the actual speed of the game turns.
I think we may have missed something on AT16 with the Gorn capital; there may be a predictable additional 15 ships there due to strategic movement, although most of the ships in Federation space did move last turn.
The ships in 3203 are there because they were on their way from the off map to either 2908 or 4402 and they decided to spend the Coalition turn defending the sole remaining link between 2908 and the off map. There actually weren't a lot of Feds able to get to 4402 at all.
Trent is still having fun, but I think it's hard for him to stay strategically engaged when we have to keep going away and coming back to make progress in bite-sized chunks. So mistakes are being made, and mostly he'd rather make them than have me criticize every move. We're already planning on running this back after swapping ends, so if the Coalition wins - and at this point I think they will - it is what it is.
Of course, he could roll a couple of 6's in 0617 this turn and things could turn around in a hurry.
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, November 26, 2021 - 10:05 am: Edit |
Update, nothing missed. In light of the Romulan fleet's re-arrival, Trent chose quite intentionally not to fight in open space forever and risk other Federation losses.
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, November 26, 2021 - 03:27 pm: Edit |
Update: In the Romulan econ, it shows 8 FFF remaining at EOT CT17. That is of course a mistake, as the 8 available FFF were used this turn. Somebody (jerks thumbs: THIS GUY) forgot to correct the final total.
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, December 01, 2021 - 12:25 am: Edit |
Correction to AT16 combat:
We forgot a scout bonus (again) so the Alliance gets an LSC back, loses an NCL instead, and uncripples a CC, crippling an NCL instead.
No big deal, but here is the updated 2509 combat:
| 2509 | 1 | Coalition (86) | 8 | 103 | 4 | 2 | 10 | 5 | 45.00% | 46.35 | Direct LSC (30) | Cripple CC,NCL | |
| Alliance | 5 | 103 | -1 | 4 | 6 | 45.00% | 46.35 | Direct F6E (26) | 12 Fighters, Cripple 2xD5 (-6) | ||||
| 2 | Coalition (74) | 8 | 98 | 1 | -1 | 4 | 4 | 27.50% | 26.95 | Direct NCL (22) | 5 Fighters | ||
| Alliance | 5 | 100 | -1 | 4 | 4 | 25.00% | 25 | N | 12 Fighters, Cripple D5 | ||||
| 3 | Coalition (62) | 8 | 98 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 4 | 32.50% | 31.85 | Direct SC (30) | 2 Fighters | ||
| Alliance | 5 | 100 | -1 | 4 | 1 | 22.50% | 22.5 | Direct D5 (22) | 1 Fighter | ||||
| 4 | Coalition | 0 | 0 | Rolled a '6' for pursuit | |||||||||
| Alliance | 0 | 6 |
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, December 05, 2021 - 05:54 am: Edit |
Although the Hydrans extracted a high price for the death of 20 PDU's - alas ship numbers (unless the
Hydrans can pin the Coalition out from 617 for a few turns?) means nothing if 617 falls.
Is there any chance the Alliance can get enough ships into Gorn Space to recaprture one of the Gorn Capital Hexes?
(i.e. use a DN+50 Frigates to pin 2 of the hexes and send the best Gorn ships to liberate the third hex).
The Alliance need to do something quickly.
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, December 05, 2021 - 09:53 pm: Edit |
Graham,
Thanks for posting these interesting combat results. Do you have more information on what lines the Alliance and Coalition used at the beginning of the capital assault, and then at the end? I'm particularly curious when Coalition carriers may have joined the line directly.
--Mike
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, December 05, 2021 - 10:05 pm: Edit |
I believe (you can see what round the Alliance starts killing fighters) it was round 3, which was "When the Coalition player realized he was better off letting entire carrier groups get directed on than continuing to self kill half a dozen plus ships a round, so he decided to give that option."
Needless to say, the Alliance continued dropping damage as long as it resulted in entire lines getting blasted.
The Coalition's first line was a bunch of DN's plus a battle group (777666, intended to be self killed from the beginning), and a mauler. After that the Coalition got serious about EW and started putting scouts on the line, and occasionally crippling or killing them; if the game doesn't end by CT20 or so, this may well matter a lot.
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 11:59 am: Edit |
Paul:
I don't think there is a lot that can be done in Gorn space; the Romulans have a lot of ships and a lot of fighters, and the Gorns are running out of uncrippled hulls.
Further, the Klingons have significant fleets threatening the Federation capital, so the Federation hasn't moved a major fleet into striking distance.
I'll post a map after combat is complete.
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 04:17 pm: Edit |
Graham
Thanks
Alliance needs to do something.... which may or may not be possible.
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, December 12, 2021 - 08:37 pm: Edit |
>> Neither of us were really looking forward to, like, an entire weekend of BT+12 FFs vs. Romulan Carrier line #23A.
One of the most insightful and hilarious things I've read in a while. I laughed out loud.
Thanks again for posting your game. It looks like you did quite a bit for a first time through. And good luck to Trent on your next game! :-)
--Mike
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, December 12, 2021 - 11:37 pm: Edit |
I'll post a real recap and some thoughts after I have some time to assess. But the vague theory I have is that - marking us both down for being new, and therefore acting like morons - the Alliance wasn't aggressive enough. The Alliance -always- has to hit the thing they aren't pinned out of, I think, because those opportunities can be "lost turns" or "lost partial turns" for Coalition fleets.
I plan on being more active in my turn as the Alliance, without worrying too much about losing ships.
Hypothesis: The Alliance is better off losing more ships and keeping territory longer, as long as they don't lose capitals more cheaply.
We'll see.
Of course, a lot of what was going on in this game was that I (as the Coalition) was better at optimization problems, because I'm 43 and non-terrible at learning, and he is eleven. This meant I figured out the way battle forces worked faster, and kept doing so; and that stuff matters a lot.
Anyway, more to come, and thank you for the kind words.
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