VARIABLE SHIPYARD COST
Daniel Knipfer suggested that since every empire’s capital shipyard has a different capacity, the cost to replace a destroyed shipyard should be proportional. The staff plans to take the proposal to another level, and allow an empire that lost their shipyard to build a replacement equivalent to a lesser empire’s yard. This would have a smaller capacity but would cost less and could be upgraded later at an additional cost. In effect, a player could build a shipyard suited to his needs and budget, adding only the slipways for the ships he wants to build.

By Alan De Salvio (Alandwork) on Friday, June 18, 2021 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Fine and dandy except for Kzinti and Hydran shipyards during the first half of the General War. I recommend limit by doctrine to Y175 and later to avoid breaking the established General War history.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, June 18, 2021 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Not if it doesn't let the capital shipyard be replaced any faster - after all what constitutes the capital shipyard in F&E terms is clearly much more than just a big collection of slipways, but a lot of the underlying and background infrastructure to allow them to operate.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, June 18, 2021 - 08:25 pm: Edit

The various proposals for the Variable Shipyard Cost do not change the time factor. It will take you a minimum of 6 turns to replace the capital shipyard even at a reduced capacity. This includes a medium shipyard under (450.22).

By Daniel Glenn Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Saturday, June 26, 2021 - 10:39 pm: Edit

Pleased to see that this proposal is seeing some consideration. Wish I was in Amarillo to discuss it this week, but its a busy summer.

Maybe next year.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, August 14, 2021 - 06:15 pm: Edit

I finished TacOps (the second complete draft) today and I don't remember seeing this in it.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, August 14, 2021 - 07:53 pm: Edit

My text from when I was playing around with the idea based on Dan's original idea and the discussions that followed. Probably needs some major work as it is 4 years old.

(4RC.0) REPLACEMENT CAPITAL SHIPYARD
By Thomas Mathews, USS Georgia

(4RC.1) LOCATION

The location of a capital replacement shipyard is under (511.3).

(4RC.2) COST

(4RC.20) Base Cost: The cost of full replacement is equal to the cost of the higher of the Spring or Fall turn’s construction in the year the capital shipyard was lost, paid out over a number of turns at a maximum rate of 15 EPs per turn.

Example: The Kzinti capital shipyard is lost in the fall of Y175.
AO construction schedule is:
Y175S – Y180S: DN, BC, NCA, 3xCM, 3xDDW, 3xFFK. Total = 16+8+6+15+12+9=66
Y175F – Y180F: CV+MEC+DWE, BC, NCA, 2xCM, 2xDW, 3xFFK Total = 12+12(Fighters)+6+5+8+6+10+8=80

The replacement cost is 80 EPs taking five turns at 15 EPs and one turn at 5 EPs or 6 turns at 13.33 EPs or some other combination over 6 turns subject to the maximum limit of 15 EPs per turn.

(4RC.21) Fighter Factories: 12 EPs are added to the scheduled cost if a given schedule does not include a carrier in the base calculations. Exception: 6 EPs are add to the Gorn and Lyran schedules.

(4RC.22) Engineers: Engineers (541.0) may not be used to reduce the cost.

(4RC.3) SMALLER SHIPYARD OPTIONS

(4RC.30) A smaller replacement shipyard may be built by removing any number of ships from the current schedule. The cost is reduced by the base hull removed in the schedule chosen at the time of replacement under (4RC.20).

(4RC.4) FUTURE SCHEDULE INCREASE

(4RC.40) Future Schedule Increase: If a given empire’s schedule is increased under their (7xx.x) rule it is automatically increased if they built their full size shipyard at the time of replacement. If they built a smaller schedule replacement under (4RC.30) then they may increase their schedule by paying the difference in schedules over a period of four turns. If a hull type changes from CW to NCA or FF to DW then the cost is NCA or DW base hull cost to add that slot to the schedule. Engineers (541.0) cannot be used to reduce the cost of the increase in schedule.

Example: The Kzinti schedule from the Fall of Y169-Y174 to the Fall of Y175-Y180 converts a CM to an NCA, 2xFF to 2xDW and 3xFF to 3xFFK. If the full price was paid at the time of replacement there is no cost for the schedule change. If a CM and FF slot were removed at the time of replacement then the replacement cost would be 6 EPs for the NCA and 4 EPs for the DW slots equaling 10 EPs for both ships. The 10 EPs are paid a rate of 2.5 EPs per turn.

(4RC.5) MEDIUM SHIPYARD REPLACEMENT

(4RC.50) Medium Shipyard Replacement: Medium shipyards (450.2) use the same formula calculating the replacement cost of all ships larger than a CL or CW as a full shipyard. The maximum limit is 8 EPs per turn.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, August 15, 2021 - 01:12 pm: Edit

This needs to go to the next revision of the basic ser rules not tacops.

By Daniel Glenn Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Tuesday, October 05, 2021 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Turtle; lets sit down next year and hash this over and see if we can come up with something worthy of Captain's Log. I'm going to try and be at stratcon.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, June 09, 2022 - 08:29 am: Edit

I don't know when Strat Con is (couldn't see anything in the events), but a really silly question.

Is this rule needed?

Seems a lot of text (which will need more text in expansions etc) for something which 99% of the time effects just the Kzinti and Hydrans (and 1% of the time, Gorn and Romulans)?

If the Klingons or Feds lose their Shipyard - it's pretty much game over.

If the Lyrans lose their Shipyard, it's probably game over (i.e. something seriously stopped the Klingons protecting 408).

Is it not easier to include a basic cheaper Shipyard in the Basic rules - which has more options with the expansions (single Ship way and Medium Shipyard)?

Just my 2p....

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, June 10, 2022 - 09:09 am: Edit

---

Quote:

I don't know when Strat Con is (couldn't see anything in the events)

---

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, June 10, 2022 - 04:20 pm: Edit

If we do create variable costs that the Hydrans and Kzintis would have the current/base cost and the other empires proportionately larger costs. I think everyone wanted to assume that the Feds were the base cost and everyone wanted to the others to be proportionately less, but that isn't happening.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Saturday, June 11, 2022 - 01:07 am: Edit

The game has built in assumptions that either the Hydrans or the Kzinti shipyards, if not both, will likely need to be built. Clearly, if this rule is adopted, they would be the floor. Either the Feds or the ISC, or both, will be the top end.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, June 11, 2022 - 06:07 am: Edit

Turtle: Please run your numbers with just the ship schedule for the other major empires and post here but simply note the free fighter factors/free PFs separately as I'd like to compare just the schedules.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, June 13, 2022 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Chuck, this will completed tomorrow by the close of business. I am currently about 70% done now. I've had more overtime than I anticipated from my every day job.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 - 06:37 pm: Edit

Here are the empires with construction schedules for Y172, Y175, and Y180.

Empire	S172		F172		S175		F175		S180		F180
Federation	CVA	18	DN+	14	CVA	18	DNG	16	CVA	18	DNG	16
	ECL	7	CA	8	NAC	6	2xCA	16	NAC	6	2xCA	16
	2xDE	14	6xNCL	30	DWA	5	NCA	6	DWA	5	NCA	6
	CA	8	6xFF	18	FFE	4	12xNCL	60	FFE	4	12xNCL	60
	3xNCL	15		70	CC	9	5xDW	20	CC	9	HDW	6
	3xFF	9			CA	8	9xFF	27	CA	8	8xDW	32
		71			NCA	6		145	NCA	6	5xFF	15
	15xFFF				11xNCL	55			11xNCL	55		151
	SWAC	3	SWAC	3	4xDW	16	SWAC	3	HDW	6
					8xFF	24			7xDW	28	SWAC	3
						151			4xFF	12
					15xFFF					157
					SWAC	3			15xFFF
									SWAC	3
Klingon	S172		F172		S175		F175		S180		F180
	C8	16	D7C	9	C8	16	D7C	9	C8	16	D7C	9
	2xD7	16	D7	8	2xD7	16	D7	8	2xD7	16	D7	8
	9xD5	45	D6	8	D5W	6	D6	8	D5W	6	D6	8
	3xF5L	12	9xD5	45	8xD5	40	D5W	6	8xD5	40	8xD5	40
	6xF5	18	3xF5L	12	3xF5W	12	8xD5	40	HDW	6	HDW	6
	E4	2.5	6xF5	18	2xF5L	8	3xF5W	12	2xF5W	8	2xF5W	8
		109.5	E4	2.5	4xF5	12	2xF5L	8	2xF5L	8	2xF5L	8
				102.5	E4	2.5	4xF5	12	4xF5	12	4xF5	12
						112.5	E4	2.5	E4	2.5	E4	2.5
								105.5		114.5		101.5
	12xFFF				12xFFF				12xFFF
Romulan	S172 (PWC)		F172 (PWC)		S175		F175		S180		F180
	K9C	18	SHR	16	NH	10	CON	17	NH	10	CON	17
	SUP	19	FH	8	FH	8	FH	8	FH	8	FH	8
	FFH	10	3xSP	15	4xSP	20	4xSP	20	5xSP	25	5xSP	25
	SPB	22	SKB	12.5	3xSK	10.5	3xSK	10.5	HDW	6	HDW	6
	2xSP	10	2xSKE	9	SH	2.5	SH	2.5	5xSK	17.5	5xSK	17.5
	SKB	12.5	KR>KRV	12	WE	6	WE	6	3xSH	7.5	3xSH	7.5
	2xSKE	9	SP>SPS	5	SN	2.5	SN	2.5	WE	6	WE	6
	WE>KE	3	2xWE>2xPE	10		59.5		66.5	SN	2.5	SN	2.5
		103.5	2xK4>2xK4D	2						82.5		89.5
				89.5	12xFFF
	12xFFF								12xFFF
Kzinti	S172		F172		S175		F175		S180		F180
	DN	16	CV	22	DN	16	CV	22	DN	16	CV	22
	BC	8	MEC	6	BC	8	MEC	6	BC	8	MEC	6
	4xCM	20	EFF	3.5	NCA	6	DWE	5	NCA	6	DWE	5
	6xFF	15	BC	8	3xCM	15	BC	8	3xCM	15	BC	8
		59	CL	6	3xDW	12	NCA	6	3xDW	12	NCA	6
			2xCM	10	3xFFK	9	2xCM	10	3xFFK	9	2xCM	10
	12xFFF		5xFF	12.5		66	2xDW	8		66	2xDW	8
				68			3xFFK	9			3xFFK	9
					12xFFF			74	12xFFF			74
Gorn	S172 (PWC)		F172 (PWC)		S175		F175		S180		F180
	DNL	16	HDS	8	DN	18	CC	10	DN	18	CC	10
	HD	5	HD	5	BC	10	BC	10	BC	10	BC	10
	2xBD	8	2xBD	8	CM	8	CM	8	CM	8	CM	8
	BDS	6		21	3xHD	15	3xHD	15	3xHD	15	3xHD	15
		35			4xBD	12	4xBD	16	HDW	6	HDW	6
					DD	3	DD	3	3xBD	12	3xBD	12
	6xFFF					66		62	DD	3	DD	3
										72		64
					6xFFF
									6xFFF		6xFFF
Hydran	S172		F172		S175		F175		S180		F180
	PAL	22	CV		PAL	22	CC	11	PAL	22	CC	11
	RN	10.5	DE	9	RN	10.5	DG	9.5	RN	10.5	DG	9.5
	2xHR	16	2xAH	7	3xCW	15	3xCW	15	IRQ	7	MHK	10
	TR	5	DG		KN	6	LN	6	2xCW	10	2xCW	10
	3xHN	7.5	2xHR	16	3xHN	7.5	3xHN	7.5	KN	6	LN	6
	3xCU	7.5	TR	5	3xCU	7.5	3xCU	7.5	3xDW	12	3xDW	12
		68.5	3xHN	7.5		68.5		56.5	3xFF	7.5	3xFF	7.5
			3xCU	7.5						75		66
				52	12xFFF
	12xFFF								12xFFF
Lyran	S172		F172		S175		F175		S180		F180
	DN	16	BC	10	DN	16	BC	10	DN	16	BC	10
	CA	8	CA	8	CA	8	CA	8	CA	8	CA	8
	4xCW	20	4xCW	20	NCA	6	NCA	6	NCA	6	NCA	6
	3xDW	12	3xDW	12	3xCW	15	3xCW	15	3xCW	15	3xCW	15
	3xFF	7.5	3xFF	7.5	3xDW	12	3xDW	12	HDW	6	HDW	6
		63.5		57.5	3xFF	7.5	3xFF	7.5	4xDW	16	4xDW	16
						64.5		58.5	FF	2.5	FF	2.5
	6xFFF									69.5		63.5
					6xFFF				6xPF
									6xFFF

General Note to the above: Carriers are listed with the cost of their fighters paid for in EPs. Each Spring includes their annualized Free Fighter Factors. No Variants are listed unless their were listed on the Empire's Order of Battle Construction Schedule. This includes Romulan conversions.


Each Empire may produce the following in addition to their specified construction schedule above:
1xFRD (10)or PRD (Varies) per turn
1 MB (10) or OPB (15) per turn
Any number of PDUs (7 ea) or PGBs (3 ea)

Specific Empire Notes:
The Federation receives one free SWAC (3) per turn included in their listings above.
The Federation may build a second SWAC (3) each turn or beginning in Y178 an E3 SWAC (4).
The Romulans receive one free Cloaked Decoy (3) each turn beginning in Y178.
The Romulans may build a second Cloaked Decoy (3) each turn.
The Romulans may build a Heavy Cloaked Decoy (4) in place of the second Cloaked Decoy once per year.
The Gorns receive a Free Repair Pod (5) in the Spring of Y175, Y176, Y177.
The Gorns receive 3 Free Replacement PFs per turn beginning in the Fall of Y182.
The Lyrans receive 6xPFs each turn beginning in the Fall of Y178.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 - 06:40 pm: Edit

NOTES to the above:
HDWs for all empires assume a C or K module at the time of construction.
No Free Auxiliaries are listed as they are self balancing.
Contractor Prototypes are not listed for the Federation and Klingons. Essentially these would be self balancing.
The Hydran Schedule does not use the accelerated production schedule.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, June 14, 2022 - 09:20 pm: Edit

NOTES to the above:
The Klingons may spend 5 EPs for a d6 roll for each B10 under construction.
The Klingons receive 2d6 roll for a SWARM once at war with the Federation.