I imagine this could be a player option.

Each empire, beginning on their X-tech introduction date, begins transforming its economy to new technology, also. For each turn, or year, after its X-tech introduction each empire may convert one more EP to an XTP per (523.12), and may buy one more XTP at a cost of 2 EPs, than the turn/year before.

This will not increase the wealth of any empire, but will eventually transform the economy to XTPs. As XTPs can be used for anything that EPs can be, it won't negatively affect the economy of any empire or restrict what can be purchased. I think this would somewhat favor the Alliance.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, November 02, 2021 - 07:21 am: Edit

John, currently you can convert EPs to a maximum of 20% + 20 XTPs. 20% of total EPs produced and adjusted for economic status (i.e. 75% for exhaustion) + 10 EPs to 10 XTPS, + 20 EPs to 10 XTPS under (523.12).

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, November 02, 2021 - 11:50 am: Edit

I think, Turtle, that what John was getting at was to have a slowly increasing percentage of XTP production over the years to reflect the slow but gradual shift of an industrial base and economy to produce higher technology goods and systems.

This would start small, and slowly shift the player's economy to 100% XTP instead of EP, but *I* would imagine that it would take longer than 10 years (20 turns) to see a transition, more like 25 years (50 turns), outside the scope of the game.

All in all, a great idea, and perfect for those long-term 4X style campaigns, but not really feasible (IMHO) in-game unfortunately.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Tuesday, November 02, 2021 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Turtle, I am aware. Thanks anyway.

Mike, you did understand exactly what I was driving toward. I haven't done the math to check the time scale, but I think it would take 25-50 years to fully convert an economy as my proposal is written, especially if the change happens at the per year rate. This idea would facilitate potential future and as yet unthought of and unwritten rules which allow an increase in the number of x-tech units available.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, November 02, 2021 - 03:19 pm: Edit

John;

I "got" it, because it was what I was proposing for our local 4X campaign, since we start in Y60 and go all the way to about Y160 or so, evolving technology as we go.

The GM found it too difficult to work in, so it was left in the "box of spare parts" at the end of the day. I saw 2 major technological thresholds, and 2 minor ones in the overall scope of the game. Y to M and GW to X being the major ones, and W to Y and M to GW being the minor ones. The major ones were where this concept would have been applied, and would have the effect of slowing down the appearance of the newer technology ships.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, November 03, 2021 - 09:15 am: Edit

I'm not surprised that others have thought up the idea before. It's just that I've never seen it.

How would it have the effect of slowing down the appearance of the newer technology ships? More x-tech points, more x-tech stuff. That seems pretty straightforward.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Wednesday, November 03, 2021 - 11:14 am: Edit

Because in my system, ONLY XTP would have been used for X ships and bases, with no additional conversion above and beyond this rule. It would have been a base of 2% of national economy, plus an additional 2% per turn.

For an empire making 100 EP (we'll use the Feds as an example), that is a paltry 2 EP, starting on the turn of the first X prototype received. The following turn would see 4 EP received. Still generally not enough to build anything, unless you've managed to either convert an existing FF. Only by the 3rd turn of the conversion process, assuming that you've been saving your XTPs, can you build that 7XTP frigate...

So there you are, 3 turns in, and all that you've managed to do to modernize the fleet is build or convert one FF to a FFX. If that isn't slowing the transition down, what is?

Of course, it accelerates. The initial stages are pretty glacial though.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, November 03, 2021 - 01:51 pm: Edit

Mike, what is slowing down the transition is your house rule which nobody outside of your player group knows about.

My proposal expands on the (523.0) rules anyone with AO can read.

Turtle made a good point I hadn't thought about when he described the XTPs as 20% + 20 XTPs. I only stated (and thought about) the 20 XTPs. I could and should have included the 20% to be increased at the same rate, 1% per turn/year.

Some justification could be made up that the new technology also helped the exhausted empires recover from their exhaustion more easily.

The economic changes really wouldn't affect the GW much at all coming in so late and in such small increments. Only the Andromedan player would sneer at this because 10 years of this would mean 20% + 20 XTPs could mean 30% + 40 XTPs by the time Operation Unity is launched; using simplified, rounded numbers and Turtle's inferred suggestion and the yearly rate.

Considering the way technological change works, I wouldn't be surprised if the rate of production of x-units improved in the 20+ years from the introduction of x-tech to Operation Unity. In fact I would be surprised if x-tech production remained stagnant. I'm just offering up a hopefully plausible way to pay for it.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, November 03, 2021 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Keep in mind that during the ISC Campaign most empires are running at a 25% economic level. That's going to cut down on available XTPs.

So using the Feds as an example. They can run their economy at 25% from Turn 35 Fall of Y185 until the Spring of Y188 gives the Federation an economic recovery of 5 Turns. Using the economic rules for recovery in (652.32) and the number of turns the Federation spent on a war time economy under (625.515) at the beginning of the Fall of Y185, have 28 Turns - 10 Turns (5 Turns at a rate of 2 per turn) for a remaining balance of 18 Turns should the Federation increase their economy to a level greater than peacetime (50%).

Now it could be argued that 25% gives you 3 turns of recovery instead of 2, but that is my opinion and not based on fact or supported in any way, shape, or form by the data presented in the F&E rules.

NOTE: Expansion of a given empire's Off Map area would be included for the base number of XTPs available. The Federation for example has added 20 additional provinces to their off map area as of Turn 35.

Timeline Notes:

Turn 35: First Turn after the end of the General War.
Turn 36-39: Four Turns of the ISC Pacification.
Turn 40-67: Andro War according to SFB Timeline this is 28 F&E Turns from the start of the massive Andro invasion until their defeat at the end of Operation Unity.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, November 03, 2021 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Folks, remember that the 20% for XTPs is a bonus from planetary income (before exhaustion but with devastation plus a home world and SBX [SFX} bonuses), so no province (or colony) income...

Turtle, the recovery rate of '2' was from the Four Powers War era and may be elevated for post-GW period ...

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Wednesday, November 03, 2021 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Keep in mind, people, that I never said that this was any sort of proposal (from my direction) to modify any existing F&E rules. This was 100% the campaign I'm involved in, and an observation that your thought pattern was (somewhat) parallel to mine and I grokked it.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, November 03, 2021 - 09:43 pm: Edit

I cannot support any program to make XTPs easier to get than they are. I cannot control "house rules" but I won't publish or endorse them.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Monday, November 08, 2021 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Steve, thanks. It's better to try and fail than to fail to try. I was thinking as far out as the X2 trade wars era, but you're in a better position to know how that'll happen. While trying to find a rule to support a point, I reread the note at the end of (625.515) Exhaustion and Recovery. Based on what I read I withdraw the suggested proposal.

Mike, nobody is accusing you of any proposal. At worst, you confused me by commenting on your house rule without letting me know it was a house rule.

Stewart, there are bonus XTPs, but they're not part of the 20% or the 20 XTPs. They are listed in (523.12), but are separate XTPs than those discussed here.

Turtle, I found a reference which gives some credit to x-tech for increased exhaustion recovery in (625.515). I didn't mean to take credit for an idea which already existed.

I think you're correct about the 25% economic level giving 3 turns of recovery for each turn at that level. I think I read it, but I haven't found a reference to give the rule number. In any case, if 25% didn't have a recovery benefit greater than 50% there would be no point logically in restricting the income that much, so I would agree with your argument. I did find in (625.515) "When the Andromedans invaded, the various empires were able to resume a higher level of economic production than the rules for F&E would account for." which I interpret as something new addressing this topic will be coming down the pike.