Archive through November 30, 2021
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
F&E Proposals Forum:
Police Operations:
Archive through November 30, 2021
At present, Federation and Empire is focused on the "star fleets" of the Alpha Octant: the Federation Star Fleet, the Klingon Deep Space Fleet, and so on.
This concept is aimed at adjusting the "magnification" somewhat, to consider the various "space police" forces within each Alpha Octant empire: the Federation Police, the Klingon Internal Security Force, etc.
The idea would be to offer rules, orders of battle, and other details which would account for police operations across a given empire: dealing with Orion pirates, responding to various local crises, running into the occasional space monster, and (once the Andromedans are in play) facing those pesky Conquistador, Python, and Reconnaissance Cobra raids.
Each empire might have its own specific quirks to consider. The Federation Police are perhaps stymied by their inability to operate inside the Orion Enclave. The ISF has various rebellious planets and corrupt officials to prosecute in the name of the Klingon Empire, plus the matter of adjusting for the expanding borders of the Vudar Enclave. Each Lyran county's "space police" would, in certain time periods, have to deal with the LDR's attempts to "export revolution" within their respective provinces. And so on and so forth.
Rather than the call-up which police units are presently affected by, perhaps one could offer an equivalent rule allowing one or more ships from a given empire's navy to help deal with particularly troublesome arrests. Given the deep-seated rivalry between the ISF and the DSF, perhaps a Klingon player would have a higher threshold to cross in order to call upon the navy for support. But then, since the ISF is more heavily-armed than most "space police" forces, that might itself act as a sort of balancing factor.
This idea could also be seen as something of a corollary to the "Orion Vendettas" proposal elsewhere on the BBS: if one group of players were each acting as Cartel Lords, other players could in turn act as the police commissioners tasked with anti-piracy operations - to include squabbling over who, if anyone, may launch "police actions" against Orion assets in the Neutral Zones. (The Federation and Gorn "space police" might agree to joint anti-pirate operations in the Neutral Zone along their border. The Kzinti and Lyran "space police"... not so much.)
So, does this sound like it might be an interesting level of play, perhaps combined with the Orion cartels in a "cops and robbers" campaign; or would it perhaps work better in some other game scale instead (say, in the proposed Federation Admiral game system), if it were to work at all?
I think there's way too much stuff that needs to be done for F&E before anything like this should be done (I don't control the schedule obviously). I have seen SVC post numerous times that there's only so much time to do things, and I for one would prefer that long delayed products and updates for F&E be done before fringe things like early years or this suggestion.
I personally would like to see the rules updated to 2010 standards, the Civil War module and then Andro War get done before other things are then added, and to the best of my understanding, anything else being worked on delays one of those things I hope to see that are needed to update the rules and to get the remaining important powers in the Alpha Octant represented (ie the WYN and the Andromedans).
It makes for an interesting idea but it would be hard to do on an F&E scale. You would need hidden pirate movement, some kind of search mechanic, and an economy mechanic for the pirates at least that probably would not have an impact on the F&E level economy. I think it would mostly come down to die rolls to find pirates.
Doing it in the middle of a war game (such as the General War) might be good for flavor but it would have to take into account the constantly shifting territories and the pirates have the problem of still having little effect on the macroeconomics of the empires. It might degenerate into just being a mercenary force with not much to do that just hires out ships like in the original F&E pirate rules.
This sounds more like an expansion for the new game that just came out. Merchants of the Federation.
There's been enough updates to 2010, and rules and rulings, that what we really need is a 2020 edition of the rules, with similar updates made to all of the expansion products.
We also need a warbook which collates all the updated 2020 rules into one place.
I would (almost) kill to get these product updates.
Andro War, Civil War, and any special projects can wait - in my opinion. I *feel* strongly that the essential rules of F&E are in desperate need of updating and collation.
Obviously, SVC has to allocate his time and his investment money based on business considerations other than my feelings. However, I would sorely like to see a complete F&E 2020 edition published. I would re-buy it and all the expansions, as well as the Warbook.
Depending on what kind of rules were to be set in place for placing (and later uncovering) the Rapid Transit Network over in Andro War once that project gets underway, one could perhaps draw from that example (once it is there to be considered) in order to account for Orion operations, and the efforts by the "space police" to put a stop to them.
Well, the Orion bases in and around Romulan space might have certain advantages over Andromedan satellite bases, due to the local availability of cloaking devices.
The economic aspect would be distinct, as the Orions are less destructive than the Andromedans are. While the Andros will destroy shipping in wholesale lots and cause maximum damage to a target colony world, the Orions are (typically) careful to leave enough so that there will be something new worth stealing once a certain "fallow" period has passed. Plus there is the matter of running dummy corporations so as to profit from "legitimate" trade, or at least those types of unsanctioned transactions which do not involve holding people up at gunpoint.
I'm not asking for this idea to be considered ahead of any more pressing products. Even so, I wondered if it might yet be something worth considering once said products are put into place.
Just to comment on the original proposal, l would suggest using the “KIS” system. keep it Simple.
Just ignore the Orion’s, not needed. Most police operations appear as reaction to Orion attacks Pirate operations. Sadly, by the time the forces are assembled, the pirates will have moved on.
It was only rarely that a mobilized police task force (with, or with out regular naval support) was in the right time and place to combat the Orion’s pirate forces.
Therefore, add to the available options list that each at peace empire (large empires such as the Klingons, Lyrans and Federation are allowed two) province mobilization of its assigned police ships.
This should amount to no more than 1 police ship per hex in the affected province. (For example, for a province with 7 F&E hexes), the federation would “federalize” 7 POL police corvettes, the Klingons 7 E3 escorts, and other empires similarly.) the nearest Star base of the empire would deputize a regular navy ship with an appropriate federation and empire command rating. (In the case of the Federation, this might be a FEMA class ship variant of the DD destroyer.)
If the pirate emergency mobilization occurs on the same turn an enemy invades the empire, the “temporary anti piracy patrol “ acts in all ways as a classic pin force. At the conclusion of the turn the ships return to regular duty and are removed from play.
The tricky part will be trying to ascertain the value of the balance point those ships are worth.
Also, instead of letting the defending player choose what province is mobilized, find some random method that would work, and let the attacking player roll the dice.
If nothing else, just roll randomly for each province the attacking forces enter during operational movement, say a roll of a 6 on a six sided die... and when a province is mobilized, just stop rolling.
I think this could be done by someone other than me. The objective in my view would be a separate game that uses the map and counters for F&E in an "empire vs pirate" campaign of some sort.
I will comment that the warbook is well under way, with all its updates. Yes, we needed a 2020 rulebook but you got updates to AO21*, SO21*, CO21, and PO21 instead, plus the new TO21 and soon CW22. Other than AW I don't see another new product, but we do need F&E22, IW23, ME24, and CW25. (I don't think DO is viable as it unhinges the game balance and makes the attack by anyone fail.) I would like to "finish" F&E and retire.
Ok then.
A separate game that uses the map and counters for F&E in an “empire vs pirate” campaign of some sort.
To me, that would seem to be a perfect opportunity for a Captains Log article for a F&E thing.
Really, a “Beer and Pretzel’s” F&E campaign with a 1 to 2 hour game session duration could encourage new players as a sort of introduction.
Hidden movement (of the Orions) is a mess, almost impossible without a referee or computer.
I would put the Orions on the map but have some kind of die roll to contact them.
I recommend that you go look at the raid rules for the combat procedure.
If we assume the Orion’s operate from hidden bases, then why couldn’t the existing raid rules work as is?
I mean, sure, the Orion hidden bases exist, and are either in a neutral zone hex, or are actually in the territory of the empire the scenario.
If you think about it, the built in stealth of Orion Pirates (+2) means that the Orion’s have a performance advantage compared to its adversaries (police or naval) as far as the SFB rules exist for detecting enemy ships. Have to pull the actual rule for details, but that might give us a profile for determining a region the pirate raids operate in for a single f&e hex.
Does it need to be any more complicated?
Perhaps a good proof-of-concept might be to start with the police forces dealing with the Orion Cluster Cartel.
The Cluster Cartel is relatively unique in having an "open" shipyard. One could clarify what kind of production capacity this yard has, subtract the ships being built for the WYN Navy (as outlined in the WYN Cluster data from Civil Wars and Tactical Operations), and use this to help construct a Cluster Cartel order of battle.
Then, one could define the police forces in those Klingon, Kzinti, and Lyran provinces within the Cluster Cartel's operating area. Indeed, if one is using the "lost empire" preview in Captain's Log #51, one could add Carnivon police forces for use in a "Mapsheet C1" campaign.
Actually, depending on how close to the edge of the WYN radiation shell a police patrol would be permitted to operate, one could even open the possibility of intercepting an Orion ship while still under its effects, as outlined under (634.11) in TacOps.
Plus, if any rival police ships were to run into each other in the overlapping Neutral Zone hexes in the region, perhaps they might end up clashing with each other rather than focusing their efforts on the Orions...
Actually, it’s a good place to start. Needs no rules modification s, it has a published set of hulls (per star fleet battles rules set.)
And, considering it as a Campaign, you could include Klingon, Lyran and Kzinti police patrols (depending on the year(s) chosen.)
And considering that it's the WYN border, the chance of the patrolling ship to be an FF/E4 should also be added [DW/F5(W) for late war interaction?]
A general question: what scale of Police Operations should be modeled ?
On one hand, using F&E rules set (as modified where needed), pirate vs police scenarios is the basis of the proposal, and can be done with no major changes to published rules. Literally, just plug in the order of battle, and bang. Instant police vs pirate combat.
The rabbit hole before us, is what other police(non-piracy) missions could/should be added.
For example, the dastardly pirate player ***could*** have the option of expanding a Pre-established list of legitimate missions that the police player could score points completing instead of/in addition to by adding a bogus decoy fake rescue mission...
Sure, capturing or killing pirates is sexy, rewarding and a certain path to early promotion... but what captain wants it known that x number of civilians died while he (the dashing and handsome Federation POL skipper ) ignored the SOS messages of distress while he was off station hunting pirates?
The laundry list is fairly long...
Search and Rescue missions.
Convoy escort.
Revenue and protection of trade patrols(yeah, I know it needs to be defined.)
Do police ships need to “Show the Flag”?
Immigration, customs enforcement?
Health and safety missions? (COVID shows just how important controlling pathogens or contagious virus is.)
What about responding to medical emergencies? We know from the background that there are thousands of “useful places” in each F&E hex, some like small mining stations have little in the way of adequate medical facilities...perhaps the only real mobile asset with proper medical facilities is in the police ship assigned to each hex.
We also know that planetary emergencies (things that the FEMA ship responds to as a second responder) would first be helped by the local police ship and whatever civilian ships are in the area.
The point is, if all the near by police ships are off helping refugees on SheboyganIV, who is left to deal with the Orion Pirates raiding Green Bay 2?
Note: I am not proposing anything here, just asking if there needs to be any other “Police Operations” outside of anti piracy issues?
(and yes, I know several Orion Pirate players who would cheerfully send a sun snake space monster to a populated Star system, to decoy the local police POL away from the dilithium mine stockpile garrison post. If the term Chaotic Evil springs to mind, you are on the right page....)
Without getting into RWM territory, there are certain ongoing "peacetime" maritime disputes - not least of which being in the South China Sea - in which one or more of the claimants make extensive use of their "coast guard" and/or "maritime militia" forces in order to assert their respective claims. ("Naval" forces are only part of the overall equation in that context.)
In the Alpha Octant, perhaps the closest equivalent to this would be in the six "Zone of Influence" provinces surrounding Cygnus, in the period of "peace" between the First and Second Federation-Kzinti Wars. The treaty which ended the first war failed to clearly establish the question of ownership in the ZoI; the Federation's self-proclaimed Border Declaration of Y102 did nothing to help matters, as the Kzintis refused to recognise this Declaration. Only after the Feds won the second war was the matter settled - although, as accounted for in (621.162), the Marquis would no doubt welcome any potential opportunity to reassert his former prerogatives in the region.
Perhaps, during this interwar period, both sides leaned on their respective "space police" and "naval auxiliary" forces to further their claims in the Zone of Influence, or rather to project an air of "normalcy" amidst a not-quite-normal political situation.
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On a side note, the "health and safety" side of things might become more of an issue for "space police" forces in the Alpha Octant from Y219 onwards, once the GSX Sakharov returns with a set of anti-Sigvirion inoculations.
As it stands, the home fleet of the Federal Republic of Aurora - which carries out "military police" duties within the FRA's claimed area of space - is on watch against any traces of potential Sigvirion infection.
Another good set of points, Gary.
But to expand a little (drawing on RWM) there has Been in the last few years, a nation expanding its fishing fleets, and then sending those groups of ships to exploit the fishing areas of nations very far away from the home nation.
This could be compared to The Merchants of Orion, instead of sending merchants to trade with other Star nations merchants, sending a convoy of empty freighters along with a full set of mining and prospectors ships.
The idea is to travel to a different region, to exploit any under developed or unexploited mineral or metal resources.
Such as the Orion’s stripping Star systems near Cygnus or Antioch or Shilo of all the Dilithium, rhodium, platinum or Latium before the owners of those Star systems can establish their own mines.
Or if the Orion’s actively rustle dilithium sheep from the Klingons.
Just what are the various police patrols supposed to do? I mean, the Orion’s (most of the time, anyway) are full members of the United Federation of Planets. Don’t the Orion’s have the right to exploit mineral and metal resources of unattended (and unoccupied) worlds ?
Just asking if it’s in the scope of Police Operations to stop criminal activities?
Its one thing to consider "official" economic activities within the Orion Enclave: for example, the Federation Police are not permitted to operate within Enclave space.
It's quite another to look outside of the Enclave, however: there, the Orion government, plus any "legitimate" Orion corporations, are subject to the same rules and procedures as other Federation members. The specific details are outlined in the Colonies and Colonization portion of Prime Directive Federation.
Of course, there remains an open question as to where "legitimate" business ends and... other kinds of Orion activities begin. But, as also noted in PD Feds, the Orions are by no means a homogeneous bloc; there are plenty of ethnic and cultural differences, plus a broad spectrum of political viewpoints, to be found on Orion, just as there are on Earth or on any other major Federation world.
Gary, your idea is a good one but an entirely different game not part of Police Operations.
If this is to be written by someone other than SVC, there needs to be a place to collect the data, suggestions etc.
I guess this is as good a place as any.
That being the case we need to start some where, May I suggest beginning with the prospective orders of battle?
As Gary suggested, the WYN Police Operations Campaign would include:
WYN Navy, the WYN Police (where different from the regular navy.)
Klingon Deep Space Fleet units patrolling the border.
ISF units (again, where different from DSF.)
Kzinti Hegemonic Space Fleet units patrolling the border (during those years the kitties haven’t been chased away!!)
Lyran Navy units on patrol, etc.
Orion Cartel units based within the Wyn Cluster.
And we need to know the production capacity of the WYN/Orion ship yard. (This will be complicated, I think...)
We also need a summary of the Raid rules SVC mention earlier.
What other data base items do we need to reference?
I don't think the WYN would have a separate Space Police force that would rate on the map. I see security skiffs and such for them.
Ryan, true, but with a caveat:
The radiation zone around the WYN system effectively prevents Skiffs (and fighters, bombers, interceptors and (when they appear in the timeline) PFs) from being able to react outside of the WYN f&e hex.
Also, the reason I think Gary originally brought up the ship yard production issue was to determine (in as far as we can...) just how many ships the Orion’s would have available for Piracy missions. I question if the Orion’s would even want to commit piracy attacks inside of the WYN system.
It’s likely that there is NO anti piracy mission for the WYN police. What they do have, are all the other non piracy missions (search and rescue, customs, health inspections, etc.)
My opinion only, but I believe that the math does not support the One Cutter Per Hex Deployment Plan for the entire Federation space until perhaps the start of the General War / Y168. POLs went into "full production" in Y127, with "prototypes" in Y125/Y126. Even with a production rate double that of the FF/FFG, they'd be hard pressed to cover the map completely before the War began. It's not like they could snap their fingers and POOF fill the map with police boats. Ergo, if you set your game in, say, Y145-Y150, you might have an average of one cutter per two hexes. You might want to take that into account as you move forward in developing your game system.
Garth L. Getgen
Garth, it might be one per hex in the core areas with a 1 to 3 (or 4) hex ratio outside of that ...