At the end of the game, the victory rules may create an incentive for competitive base upgrade cheese to get more VP. After all, BATS upgraded to SB count as SB. So in the basic game, each BATS-to-SB upgrade gains 15VP for the cost of 36EP. Based on my reading of the rules, an upgrade started on turn 33 could generate VP in this way, while an upgrade started on turn 34 would not, as the game would end before the upgrade completed.

I don't think any of this should be allowed.

Proposed rule:

Any base upgrade started on turn 31 or later does not increase the VP value of the base.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 01:15 am: Edit

Sounds reasonable but what does the staff say? Would this not have to be included in EVERY scenario as no one would know to check "somewhere" for a rule that applied to every scenario?

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 08:18 am: Edit

Hmm, interesting point about different scenarios. It could say "upgrade started during any of the last four turns". A lot of scenarios say "use (603.3) for victory conditions". If written with the "last four turns" language, it would work for other scenarios.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 10:19 am: Edit

I don't have the rule in front of me, but if I recall the upgraded base can't be just anywhere - it has to be in enemy territory or in a NZ or some such.

If correct, then the overall state of the game might have a big impact on the effectiveness of said cheese. After all, the enemy might have something to say about you building a SB in their territory - and if one side or the other is dominant and can prevent the opponent from stopping the cheese, then I'm not sure what the problem is.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 11:01 am: Edit

Yeah, if it's in range of the enemy then you should not be prevented from building it. If the full text of the rule requires that there is no need for change. What is the full text of the rule?

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 11:22 am: Edit

From FE2010* page 117:

(603.3) VICTORY CONDITIONS

Each side makes the following calculation: Take the total economic income (ignoring exhaustion, including devastated planets at their reduced levels) and multiply it by two.

Add to this total points for bases (BATs are five points, starbases twenty points, mobile bases and operational bases‡ are zero points, base stations‡ are four points, sector bases‡ are ten points) but newly built bases do not count unless they replace lost bases (and must be within three hexes of the specific base they replaced) or unless they were built in captured enemy territory (not neutral territory). In either case, newly built bases in the same hex as another friendly base do not count at all. BATS upgraded to SBs count as SBs.

Then take the total number of ships (not including non-ship units), divide by five, and add this to the total.

Then add a 100-point bonus for each enemy capital captured.
[Romulus counts as 60 points, Remus as 40. The Gorn shipyard counts as 50 points, the other two Gorn capitals as 25 points each.]

Subtract the smaller total from the larger total, then determine the level of victory from the chart below:

0-50: Draw, neither side has an advantage.
51-200: Tactical victory; significant advantage.
201-400: Major victory; ultimate victory is possible.
401+: Decisive victory; the advantage is too great to overcome before both sides collapse.

The Tholians do not count toward victory unless they have joined one side or the other.

--Mike

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 12:41 pm: Edit

This is the part I remember:

---

Quote:

but newly built bases do not count unless they replace lost bases (and must be within three hexes of the specific base they replaced) or unless they were built in captured enemy territory (not neutral territory). In either case, newly built bases in the same hex as another friendly base do not count at all.

---

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 01:15 pm: Edit

For example, in my current game, if the Gorns were to upgrade their BATS at 3801, or if the Lyrans were to upgrade 0104. 15 CheesePoints. BUT there is a long-standing Fed SB in 2004 which feels perfectly legit. Ditto the Lyran SB at Kzintai, which has been there for a long time.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 02:00 pm: Edit

William,

I might be wrong, but I think "upgrading" 104 and 3801 would get you exactly 0 extra VPs.

The rules says that newly built bases don't count unless they replace lost bases, or unless they are built in enemy territory. But I will admit that it doesn't say "upgraded" bases don't count.

Logically, I think upgrading original bases should not count using the same logic.

But maybe the rule should be changed to indicate that upgrading a base in original territory doesn't count for VPs, either?

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 03:46 pm: Edit

From the rule above: BATS upgraded to SBs count as SBs.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Yes, and my argument on the Q&A forum would be that that last sentence is read in light of the prior rule, meaning that upgraded BATS to SB don't count unless they satisfy the territory or replacement requirement.

If you need it stated more plainly, and assuming that was SVC's intent, then it may be worth making that fact explicit.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, June 23, 2022 - 05:49 pm: Edit

It should be explicit either way, and you can make a case either way, but I read, meant, and wrote "BATS upgraded to SBs count as SBs" to mean that any BATS anywhere upgraded to an SB counts as an SB and gains you 15 points.

You could argue that it "should not," and that is what is being argued. So stop worrying about what it says; I wrote it and I know what it says (they count).

If you think it should or should not say that, make your case.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, June 24, 2022 - 11:55 am: Edit

SVC, thanks for clarifying.

It is probably sufficient to put this in a Q&A. I'll post it.

But you could clarify the last sentence when the basic set is updated.

@William: I guess the VP cheese is legal... unless you can convince SVC otherwise.

I will say, though, that if you have that many EPs lying around at the end of the game maybe it's not so bad, as it reflects your economic strength.