This is a General War game between Craig (Coalition) and Tom (Alliance). Game was started around April of 2020, and is being run exclusively remote using a physical map+counters, cameras and some home-grown spreadsheets. As of this thread creation, we are at 25C.

Rules are 2010 + CO+AO+FO+PO, with many exceptions due to how the game evolved. Basically, we started with 2000+SO+MA, then decided to go as much all-in on the updated rules as we could once we got a few turns under our belt. We moved to the newer rules around turn 5 or so, but deemed that too late to add in certain rules. In particular:
- no raids
- no minor/medium shipyards, diplomats, engineers, commercial convoys or colonies
- no Klingon penal ships
- started with 2008 SIT but rapidly updated to 2015 SIT and have stuck with that
- ignored the 'pods and destroyed grids' rule
- no conjectural ships except for non-Klingon BB. - BBs by direct purchase only. No empire may being a BB until the Klingons field one, and no empire except the Klingons may build a BB variant

If there was a question on which rules to include, we generally included things that benefited the affected empires, and did not include things to their disadvantage. So we get Gorn Logistics, but don't get Romulan KR maintenance.

For setup, we used 2K+SO+MA for the start and Feds , but the updated ruleset for Gorns and Romulans, except that we deleted the fast ships those races would get at start since no one else got them either.

So it might be a bit of a mess from a balance perspective, but its been fun so far.

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Monday, July 11, 2022 - 10:51 am: Edit

These first few posts will largely be catch-up. I'll cover multiple turns in each post. We have decent but incomplete record-keeping, but few details.

Turns 1-4:

Lyrans go all-in on conversions, designating DDs as 'pre-CW' and CLs as pre-BC and CA as pre-DN. All DDs are converted as fast as possible, capital conversions are 2/turn for T1/T2, 1/turn after. Lyran CA slot used for TG or SR when possible. Lyrans begin deploying a logistic network in Klingon space, starting with MBs at 1011 and 1509. 1509 is upgraded to a BATS by T4.

Klingons build fairly vanilla, and start the first BB on T2.

Zin build vanilla with bias toward escorts and carriers ofc. First few turns max PDUs deployed on Kzintai, and a second SB is online by T4.

Hydrans eschew carriers; deploy some PDUs at the homeworld but concentrate on build quality. Fatalistic, so assume the capital will fall and build the quality ships they'll be unable to build once it falls.

Combat-wise, Lyrans roll into Zin space from the west and take out all west bases on T1. They have 11.25 salvage on T2, so that indicates a fair bit of ship kills and probably the Zin SB fell on T1 (so long ago, memory fails!). Klingons take out all the south Zin BATS, occupy 1506. A combined force takes the 1304 SB around T4.

With the Kzinti pinned back and 1401 fortified, the major conflict heads south. Klingons lose BATS at 1013 but hold 1214, which is crucial for their assault. Lyrans lose one of their border BATS, but its largely irrelevant. Klingons and Lyrans take all Hydran border BATS and 1017 SB by T4.

Things do not look good for the Hydrans.

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Monday, July 11, 2022 - 11:55 am: Edit

Lyran and Klingon economy and construction continue the theme. Lyrans upgrade the base at 1509 to a full starbase, making that hex basically invulnerable for the foreseeable future. Additional MBs get deployed to 1411 and 1915.

The Kzinti are desperate for scouts and any decent COMPOT during this period. DDs turn into DDS, the DDV is acquired, a few CV are built. Full schedule but focus is on 'bang-for-the-buck', so carrier construction is limited to free fighter availability. Definitely a period of struggle when it comes to managing healthy escorts.

Hydrans build their last DN for some time on T6. After this period its gonna be boring for a while for the methane-breathers.

Lyrans and Klingons take turns as the damage sponge. Turns 5-7 see lots of combat losses, but the Alliance steadily losing. Turn six sends things in a predictable direction: the first B10 was finished on T5, and it leads the T6-7 assaults on Hydrax. T6 all capital planets lose their PDUs and all save Hydrax are devastated. T7 the Hydrax SB dies and the shipyard falls. The Hydran capital might have fallen, but the Hydrans retreated with a substantial force. A few each CC, CA and CW, all tugs, LN and sundries as well as two Paladins still alive.

This was an interesting battle. The Hydrans actually had a chance to cripple the B10 on the first round of combat of T6 and chose not to do so. In retrospect this was may have been a mistake, as the total assault took more than 10 turns, and the B10s COMPOT difference would have been overcome over that period. Would not have saved the capital but may have extended it for one turn.

Back in the north all of the Kzinti planets save 1802 are devastated, and the capital assaulted to clear out some PDUs and do some devastation there too. Kzintai has 16 PDUs and 2 SBs at this point though, so is reasonably safe from capture as long as the Coalition emphasis is to the south.

The Klingons decided NOT to attack the Federation on T7. This lets them hit the Hydrans with impunity, but the Federation responds by immediately beefing up defenses. Limited War means MBs get deployed where ever they might help. On T7, this is 2106 and 2714. A monitor is built and dispatched to one of these as well.

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 10:35 am: Edit

Turns 8-9: Consolidate gains.

Klingons started a second battleship on turn 6 and continued to pay it down, completing the second B10 on turn 9. They continued to convert D6 to D6M/D/S, keeping every starbase busy.

Both Klingons and Lyrans invested in war cruiser-based carriers and tugs, each building one or two carriers and two tugs (one LTT, one heavy) per year. Lyrans managed to build or convert survey ships too, effectively doubling their survey output by this period.

Kzinti finally started to see the light with some decent frigates. The first FKE, FFK and FCR appeared. Continued to build one CV per turn and had enough DNs to consistently have 11-ship fleets. Federation assistance kicked in too; the extra 10 EP per turn meant the Zin could maintain their full production schedule.

Feds ramped up production and built everything allowed under limited war scenario. Upgraded three MB to BATS at 2106, 2715 and 3711 to help deal with the expected Coalition onslaught on turn 10. Did what they could to support the Kzinti.

The Hydrans could do little other than start construction on their off-map shipyard on turn 9 (I got the timeframe on the assaults noted in previous post off by one turn; the capital fell on T8, but the basic order of events is correct).

Coalition forces consolidated their gains in Hydran space. They took the last planet at 0718 and forced the Hydrans to base exclusively from off-map. A fleet of E4s made their way to province holding in eastern Hydran space.

The assault on Hydrax took its toll; the southern push meant that the Kzinti's found the opportunity to push against the Lyrans a bit in the turn 7-10 time period. The Zin managed to take out the BATS at 0502, 0504, 0705 as well as most of the ones on the Kzinti-Klingon border. Once the Coalition was able to move more heavy units back north, the Kzinti were forced to refocus on defense.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Calling a foul for the MB/BTS upgrades in 2715 and 3711. Limited War allows MBs and upgrades in the released fleet area only (4th for the Kzinti border) unless there's something else going on (654.1F)/ (654.2B) & (654.2C) ...

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 07:35 am: Edit

First - glad you have got to turn 25.

Second, we live and lean and Stewart is correct on Limited War stuff and so the North West can get fortified, but thats about it!

Third - Weirdly, I think you were wrong NOT to cripple the B10 - and thats ignoring the Compot.

The B10 would have to get back to a SB to be repaired and no amount of FRDs in a park will help - so crippled in 617 - retro's to say 1214..... Op moves back to 1411 the next turn and is then repaired the following turn - but could be put in a reserve.

Therefore, it's probably 2 or 3 extra turns not on the front line.

Lastly - direct BB builds, you mike like BB's, but they become far too cheap (i.e. 4 turns at 10 Ep's a turn, v probably 6 years of dice at an average of 7 pips a year, so 60 Ep's to build, thats 50% more Ep's AND 8 turns of earlier use*) and far too numerous I think - and that will break the advantage a Defender has in defending hard parts.

*- Ignoring the extra dice by forgoing a DN build (and you only get 1 extra dice for a single BB, so if 3 BB's are being built, the direct built route is massively quicker).

i.e 120 v 150 is a 25% defender advantage

Replace 2 10 compot hulls with 2 BB's (on both sides), it's 140 v 170, it's now only a 21% compot defender advantage.


I look forward to the turn 11 to 25 reports though (and how many BB's are running around)!!

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 08:12 am: Edit

On the MB upgrades--I just checked the Fed econ form and it looks like I did three in the 8-9 turn time period, which means two of them were illegal. Shocking that we missed a rule (heh!) but now I know why: judging by the paper-peeling sound when I turned the page, I have never looked at 654 before! Thanks for the rule reference, I would not have found without. Unfortunately, now I've found more things I've done wrong. In addition to (1) Set up two MB in 7th and 6th fleet areas and (2) Upgrade two MB in 7th and 6th fleet areas, I also (3) Conducted surveys (654.2d) and (4) Received free command points (654.2p) (we aren't playing with Admirals)

Items 1 and 2 are water under the bridge. Items 3 and 4 can be rectified immediately (I have extra command points, and the survey totals can be adjusted and an EP penalty equal to the excess income assessed). We typically do these sorts of corrections when we find errors over many turns, and there have been plenty of them!

On the B10, I agree that it was a tactical error. Klingons would have had to suffer even more casualties than they did with 12 less compot/turn. Kicked myself for a long time (a year ago now).

BB direct builds started because we were trying to minimize dice rolling. We hadn't worked out the mechanisms for gameplay yet. Also, we both really don't like the incredible randomness to it, given the rarity with which the game is played. That said, the BB is a powerful unit, and does make a significant difference. I think our next game we'd still want direct builds, though maybe they should be slowed down a bit is what it sounds like you're suggesting?

I won't spoil the suspense on total BB numbers, but note I (Alliance) declared early in the game that I would build no conjectural ships at all, including BBs.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 08:20 am: Edit

Tom wrote:
>>Lyrans go all-in on conversions, designating DDs as 'pre-CW' and CLs as pre-BC and CA as pre-DN. All DDs are converted as fast as possible, capital conversions are 2/turn for T1/T2, 1/turn after.>>

Just another "maybe this is being misinterpreted" nit-pick; unless the Lyrans build a second SB in their capital (or possibly a second Major Conversion facility, if that is possible?), they can't make two major conversions in their capital.

You can always *pay* for a second major conversion (5EPs), but can't actually *do* a second major conversion unless you have a second capital SB (like the Klingons or Feds do).

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 09:13 am: Edit

Turns 10-11: Death of the Federation border

Lyrans layed down a BB hull on T10 and transitioned their small hull conversion program to turning FF->DW. Still had a few DD left, but it was clear at this point that all of the Lyran pre-war small twin hulls would get the trimaran treatment. Lyran new construction emphasized logistics, with more tugs, MB, FRD. The STL was built but did not see action yet.

Klingon construction continued apace; VP3 pods probably the only interesting thing in this period except for the BB production. The second B10 was completed on T9. The third hull was laid down on T11, with the Coalition making noise about a potential BB carrier.

As the Romulan production was still ramping at this point, they built max. The one interesting note here is the use of FFF for FAK on both turns 10 and 11.

Romulans joined the party by attacking and destroying the 7th fleet starbase as well as most of the BATS along the Rom-Fed southeast border area. Also get some of the BATS protecting 3611, and took the neutral zone planet at 3912. Feds erased a bunch of the Romulan BATS, mostly in the southern area. The two traded blows over 3415.

Klingons took out most Fed border BATS, the two (illegally constructed!) new BATS and the two NZ planets. Feds managed to take out 2416 and 2517 BATS. With three turns of modest construction, the Federation mounted credible defenses around 2211 and 3611 but still couldn't prevent the loss of most of the BATS or the 7th fleet area.

With the Klingon assault on the Federation in progress, the Lyrans pressed the Kzinti back into their space and occupied western Kzinti provinces. They also upgraded 2014 to a BATS.

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 09:15 am: Edit

Peter:

Not a nit-pick, but a rule we missed over the first two turns. We did figure that out and the Lyrans had to back down to one major/turn, but just lived with the first two extra conversions as those ships had already entered combat. We figured we'd be botching more than a few rules (as already noticed!).

We aren't using the minor/medium shipyard rules. A major conversion yard would have enabled a second conversion, but takes some time to build itself so isn't available until T5 as I think it takes four turns to build.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 09:48 am: Edit

Heh, fair enough!

(It was possible that there was some shipyard rule that enabled this, as I'm not super familiar with the extra shipyard rules).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 11:11 am: Edit

Well, no Alliance BB's immediately puts the game into a direction the Alliance probably can't win from.

But the other thing BB's do - is make SB's not quiet worthless, but minor speed bumps.

It is very very difficult either side, to one shot 'cripple a SB' - the Coalition with maulers may get a chance or two to do it during a game (and when X-Ships turn up, the Alliance might get a similar modest chance - although the Hydrans do have the FSP too...) - but once you get compot above say 160, the chances come tumbling down.

Example
160 compot needs 45% to get 72 or greater.

Unless the BIR increase has been used (so attacker can go over BIR 4), 45% will need the defender to oblige and go high on BIR too.

At 170 compot though, 42.5% is only needed (OK, still not possible if the defender picks BIR 1).

With a 10 point Mauler though, it's down to 37.5%

And if you can get 180 compot, it's down to 35%.

(With the few 12 point maulers AND 185 compot 32.5% is enough).

2 x B10's (with fighters), 7 x DN/Battle Tugs, 2 x 10 Compot Ships, 1 x 10 point mauler and 12 points of drones is 186 compot....

(yes 2 command points/Admiral + 1 CP used)

With 4 B10/Lyran BB's (which might only be turn 15 or so) a 210 compot line is possible (still with 3 10 pt Ships)


Thats a 50/50 at BIR 5.

Those SB's which should take 9 or 10 rounds to kill (8 SIDS, 1 to kill when crippled and possibly 1 round a SID was not done).... is now dead in 2 rounds.

And this is pre-PF's!!

Sorry - BB's in large numbers, can break the game - and with one side NOT building them, thats game over.

(Yes there expensive, but if your doing +5 Damage in every battle, thats an extra cripple on the enemy, they will pay for themselves 10 times over!)

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 11:53 am: Edit

As you'll soon see, that hasn't happened. Building lots of BBs means you are compromising on something else, and at some point the Alliance might be able to win the pinning battle, making those big expensive ships not so useful. Our house rule was no Lyran BB keel until the first B10 is in service, which means the earliest a Lyran (or other BB) could see space is T9. But still in theory you could have two Lyran BB and three Klingon B10 on T14. That is not far off of where things sat at that point, but the BBs have only rarely been concentrated.

There's only one 12-point mauler I know of, the STL. And an effective 14-pointer in the DNT, but obviously that's not flying with a B10.

I am dubious of putting a BB on the line except for a critical SB kill scenario. Even on T11, the Feds can muster about 160 on a starbase defense, which at BIR 5 is enough to cripple a BB on an average roll, and kill on a lucky roll / higher BIR. Now, Craig and I both have a tendency towards preserving critical mobile assets, which makes us a bit conservative on the attack which might explain why things haven't worked out so terribly for the Alliance.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 01:34 pm: Edit

I usually disagree with Paul, but there is one point here.

If you can put 5*BB on the line that is 120 compot. Assume two command points (so command +12 ships for 13 ships total). For bits and giggles throw in a D6M (10 compot), and 7 DN/C8 units (84 compot)). Not hard to do by turn 9/10. That's 214 compot.

Assume Coalition picks BIR 4, Alliance BIR 1 at a SB assault. Assume rolls are pretty average, so even VBIR, and the Coalition rolls a "4" (50% chance to roll this or higher). That does 30.0% damage, which is 64 damage points.

With a mauler it takes (36*2)=72-10 = 62 damage points to one-shot cripple the SB. After that, it's pretty much game over for the SB.

Now, this will no doubt cost you a dead BB. Plus, there's about a 50% chance you won't make it - if - the Alliance picked BIR 1. But still, a 50% chance to one-shot a SB is pretty sick in the early phase of the war. EW could affect that, but still.

Is a 60 EP BB worth it to kill a heavily defended SB in two rounds?

You betcha. Forget about the relative EP damage being done to each side. The Alliance typically doesn't have the depth of reserves to get into a slug-fest with the Coalition, at least not in the early phase of the war. Which means a capital assault or key SB became just that much easier to take out.

Now, the way you guys are playing it maybe it's not so bad. But if I were Coalition I'd take my chances on one-shotting a SB and pay the BB butcher bill.

YMMV. Have fun!

And, THANK YOU FOR REPORTING YOUR GAME!!!

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 02:08 pm: Edit

On the BB thing, I should have made clear that we allow one BB slipway in use. So no more than one under construction at a time. You can still get to crazy compot, but its more like T15.

As you noted though, its not turned out that way because of the way we've played. We didn't see two BB in the same fleet until T23. I think if we had seen it earlier, we might have instituted some sort of rule tweak, because it does feel 'wrong.'

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 02:13 pm: Edit

T12-14: The playing field is complete

The Gorn entry let me clear off the dust on the right side of the map and have a prayer at some offensive action. Not right away of course as it took time for the Gorns to build a fleet worthy of being called an offensive force, but even at this point there was light at the end of the tunnel. Well, once all those pesky Romulan ships went 'boom' anyway...

Lyrans completed their BB on T14, and completed the majority of their logistics build-out through Klingon space. Conversion program continued, and another one of our lovely mistakes showed up in that we allowed them to build an FCR every turn. They’d been suffering from retaliatory attacks against their FRDs and CVY, so continued investing in MB, FRD. EW wars commenced around this point, so they built the KSP pod set too.

Not to be outdone, the Klingons completed their B10V on T14. They’d also discovered the wonder that is the E4R, and started regularly using that build slot for it. They started to accumulate D6Gs in the Northern Reserve area.

Romulan construction was most interesting for two things: how did he use FFF, and what’s the FH/NH variants? Over this period it was SUP and NH for the NH, FHF, FHC and FAK for the FH. He also built one SPB, which IIRC was the only one the Roms have built all game.

On the Alliance side, construction finally got good. Well, except for the Hydrans. Everything sucks when you live off-map, except that you get to dictate when you want to fight. On T14, things took a slight upward turn as the replacement Hydran shipyard was completed and the Iron Chancellor entered service.

Kzinti had built a CVA on T10, and followed up with a DND on T12. This would be the last time for quite a while that the good-guy-cats would be able to afford a DN-class hull. On the bright side, DWs became available on T14, all of which appeared as DWEs. Fed assistance ramped up to 17 Eps/turn, which enabled most of the build schedule to be completed.

Speaking of the Feds, the economy was rolling, the Limited War scenario had allowed the Feds to keep most of their income (Orion still in the fold) and the build schedule up to 30 hulls/turn. On T14, DWs got into the mix which offer some improvement over the FF. Feds were able to max their builds, build an FCR every turn, tugs most of the time up to available limits, but built carriers only using FFF. They did have all three CVA+ pods by this time too.

Gorn first few turns were heavy on CL->CCH conversions. T12 built the DNT, and T14 the DNG (because why not). Gorns were challenged economically to build their full schedule, conduct necessary repairs and do those sweet conversions, so the Feds sent the Gorn 17 Eps/turn just like they did for the Kzinti.

Movement and combat saw things break down into five real fronts:

Hydran space: Lyrans had set up on 0416 and 0718, while the Klingons took all the eastern provinces, the capital and 0519, fortifying the capital with a BATS. The B10 stayed, ensuring dominance in any fleet fight. During this period the Hydrans did little, engaging for a round or two only to use their fighters up and kill or cripple a few Lyrans and avoiding the B10.

Kzinti space and border areas: Coalition kept most Kzinti non-capital planets in a state of capture or devastation. Not a lot of movement, and no immediate threat to the capital or the Marquis starbase, though the Klingons started keeping enough ships in the neutral zone that they *could* if they wanted to.

Fed-Klingon border: Northerly, the Klingons (led by the second B10) stripped PDUs and temporarily captured several Fed planets in a back and forth that the Feds had trouble stopping. The Klingon border BATS here were still intact. 2204 was not threatened though. In the south, all Fed BATS disappeared in a puff of mauler smoke; Feds established a repair point at 2609 and make it a point to keep the Klingons from holding 2214 for more than a turn or too. Klingons lost a few of their border BATS in the south, but were under no serious pressure. Stalemate was setting in, though somewhat biased into Fed space. The advent of the B10V raised the obvious question of how and where it would be used, which would be answered in a few more turns…

Fed-Romulan border: Romulans made a play for the area around 3611, but the Feds had managed to produce just enough ship count they can keep from losing anything critical. Feds sniped a couple more BATS, and made a rash incursion into the area around the west fleet starbase, depriving the Romulans of revenue from five provinces (at the eventual cost of several frigates).

Gorn-Romulan border: Gorns managed to kill one or two or three (I really don’t remember) BATS in their initial attack, and lose most of theirs in return. The massive Romulan ship quantity advantage showed, and the Gorn were forced to largely focus on keeping their southerly starbases alive. Both races sought to hold 4309, but neither managed to do so.

This period also saw the several attempts to use stasis ships. At this point in the game, Coalition reasoned that since the stasis ship was likely to die regardless of how successful it was, that a D7A was the best combination of success vs. cost. Unfortunately for the Klingons, this did not work out. Several attempts were made, but in every case the D7A was largely ineffectual and destroyed. Back to the drawing board?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Thank goodness you missed the trick on SFG's.....

...did neither of you think about using 2 x B10AAV's?

2 B10's will probably freeze 6 or 7 ships!

Unless the Alliance have created a strong EW force, more freezing is possible (i.e. both ships can attempt 5 freezings if EW is neutal or in the Coalition favour) - and with modest luck, the B10's are safe.

AND if the odds don't look good - you don't use the SFG's and the B10's are safer in the Carrier Groups.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 06:17 pm: Edit

SFG rules got changed I believe; no more than two offensive SFGs can be used in a battle force.

As normal battle ships can be escorted, I find making them into CVAs or SCSs a waste of potential compot density; BBs are able to be 'safe' by being escorted (if desired) without being forced to be in groups at all times.

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Thursday, July 14, 2022 - 07:47 am: Edit

We started the game with the 2008 SITs. That version has only the B10A and B11A. We later upgraded to 2015, and with only very rare exception have not deviated from it. That SIT does not include a separate listing for the B10AAV, only the B10AA. The 2020 SIT adds the text about putting SFGs on any B10 variant, but we don't have that in play. Now all that said, I just went back and looked at 312.265 and it implies that a B10V can have an SFG, and then 312.323 makes it explicit; so we should have seen that.

However, 312.265 also says that the B10AV is treated as an individual ship when using its SFG. So no protection there, and can be crippled for only 20 points of damage.

I was initially pretty skeptical of the B10V because I figured that two rounds of escort killing probably removes it from the battle force. Sometimes it works out that way, but sometimes not. Its still been a useful, powerful unit.

As to limits, you can have only two SFG units, but if those are both B10AA, you can have four SFGs. I'm pretty sure that's game-breaking. Even if the Alliance has an EW advantage, its a dominating force. Is there any paper for this rock? Pinning is about it I think, the Coalition can probably play around that, forcing the Alliance into a strictly defensive posture.

This conversation is making me dislike battleships more and more....

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, July 14, 2022 - 08:26 am: Edit

>> As to limits, you can have only two SFG units

I believe the relatively recent ruling on SFGs was to limit them to 2 active ship based SFGs per battle force. So that boils down to 2x ships with 1 active SFG each (like D7A), or 1 ship with 2 active SFGs (like B10AA).

The BF can contain any number of units with inactive SFGs. That is to say, units which carry SFGs but the player chooses not to use them in that particular combat round.

--Mike

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 14, 2022 - 08:48 am: Edit

>>This conversation is making me dislike battleships more and more....>>

I think it is more the SFGs than the Battleships.

That being said, I think a lot of battleships in play tends to warp the game in strange directions due to incredibly high potential compots. When the Klingons have to spend about 12 turns and 60 EPs to build a single B10, they tend to be few and far between, and the one or two B10's flying around the map tend to be lone, and not really impact the game mechanics that much. When everyone (and by "everyone", I really mean "the Klingons, Lyrans, and maybe Feds if things are going well") can build a lot of battleships, even at "it takes 4 turns and 32 eps", the ability to just one shot Starbases becomes a legitimate possibility, and things get real weird real fast.

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Thursday, July 14, 2022 - 08:57 am: Edit

Two SFGs would be okay. Four breaks the game. Finding random rulings is difficult, so I'm not going to fight through the search function to figure that out.

The four turn build is the big issue with the BB as we've played it. Craig hasn't abused it and since I chose not to use BB, I obviously haven't either. I'm thinking we tweak that rule for a subsequent play-through. The direct buy rule is odd as written since it enables so much faster BB deployment.

Anyway, T15-17 coming soon....

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, July 14, 2022 - 10:10 am: Edit

>> the ability to just one shot Starbases becomes a legitimate possibility, and things get real weird real fast.

The original game with the 36 defense Starbase was designed around the Klingons occasionally getting a B10 after a lot of time and money speculatively invested. It was also designed around the CR10 BF with no command points.

Once command points are added in, and the BBs become more common with the advanced accelerated BB construction rules, the game certainly bends a bit. The offense has been boosted considerably while the SB still sits at the 36 def from 35 years ago.

Of course, players can choose what rules set they wish to play with.

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, July 14, 2022 - 10:25 am: Edit

Tom

The 'good' news is that as Richard said, the rule has been changed to 2 SFG's (or ship base SFG's) can be used - not 2 ships worth.

There was a good debate about 12 months ago about them, but we agreed

1) 2 B10's using 2 SFG's COULD break the game - in that if you could freeze 8 or more ships - the Alliance probably wouldn't get enough Damage to cripple a B10 (outside defending a SB or Home world) - and with a Penal Cruiser on a Sacrifice mission, pushed the required damage threshold even higher.

2) Killing 8 ships might not occur - but 45 damage say, would kill 4 or 5 ships a round was likely.

3) With good Alliance luck - the B10's might not freeze much and 1 B10 might die or be crippled

4) With Good Coalition luck - 8 or 9 Alliance ships could die (Mauler and 60 damage say?).


So SVC changed it to 2 SFG's - in some situations, 6 freezes might still do alot of damage (2 B10's do 3 freezes each), but it might not reduce the Alliance compot enough to save the B10.

So still very very very deadly - but not immune to going wrong!

(The only counter we could agree on was massive Alliance EW... but then the Alliance lose a good EW hull and don't do much damage back** (as there are few good compot Scouts - Kzinti CD or Fed CVL for example - to work, it really needed 15+EW on the Alliance side (as the Coalltiion can use 2 x D6S and a D6D say for 10 EW, fairly easily!).

** - SFG's are declared after lines etc - and so if the Alliance have higher EW - you don't use them.... and you just have a High Compot Line (and being in a group , the B10's are safe)!!

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Thursday, July 14, 2022 - 01:22 pm: Edit

T15-T17: The Romulan high water mark (economics et.al.)

This period saw the beginnings of the economic crumble, as all the starting empires moved to 75% economy. Not much new production-wise for the Lyrans. T17 saw the last base upgrade (MB->BATS at the Tholian Border Squadron starbase), but otherwise it was just build, build, build; CVLs used the FFF, and the NSC became available so the Lyrans could credibly play the 4EW free scout game.

Klingons apparently concluded the B10 production program. Even without the B10 construction dragging them down, their economics were tight. Klingons were averaging 35-40 points on repair every turn (that’s base repair rate), spending ~120 on new construction and that left very little for conversions, drone bombardment and sundries. The extra income from Hydran space helped, but Klingon EP balance typically lived around 0 at the end of each turn. This period did see the production of the first Coalition CVAs, including a C8V clearing the yards on T16.

On the Romulan side, the C8V was met with yawns as a pair of CNV made their way into the fleet in turns 15 and 17. Roms added insult to injury by peering at other fleets and joking about their pathetic excuses for heavy escorts (Fed ECL, hah!), while building one FHM per turn.

The advent of NCAs, DWs for the Alliance made their production lines look vastly better. Unfortunately, things these things cost a little more than the ships they replaced, and the Kzinti were also down to 75% economics. From this point on the Kzinti started to downgrade the DN slot so they could use all FFF on heavy carriers, build an FCR and whenever practical build a tug and/or heavy scout. They also built more pods, scout pods and the first VHP pods. T16 also saw the conversion of an old, largely obsolete CVL to an Area Control Ship, which was the first heavy fighter carrier in the game.

In Y176 (T16) the Hydrans finally got access to the MHK, which in itself was not a big deal (Hydran cruisers being directed damage magnets), but the MKE was a huge deal. During this period the Hydrans started converting their fleet to carrier-centric, leveraging those amazing heavy escorts with DWE or ad-hoc HN in the light slot(s). This would clearly take a while, but the ability to use a 10-offense ship as a carrier escort provided a way to attain high compot and take little damage in return. The Pegasus shipyard had delivered a few PGV by this point, the IC was in play and the last Dragoon was converted to a CV to fill out the bottom row of an IC-led fleet.

The Feds continued to crank out ships, maxing out drone ships, FCRs, tugs and SWACS among other things. T16 they built a military convoy in preparation for the first Logistics Task Force. They kept up their lead on scout power, building and converting a mix of SC, LSC and a pair of CFS.

The Gorn struggled with what to do with FFF. Their CV had been destroyed during T14, and with only 6 factors/year, how could they use them operationally? So continued the indecision on the Gorn’s part. T12 they built an HV, T15 a CMV and T17 a CVD. The first heavy dreadnaught in the galaxy was built on T17, along with (somewhat ominously) a Gorn special attack force. Gorn fleet commanders complained about their relative lack of war cruisers, and the admiralty responded with “but you want tugs and repair pods, right? And the occasional carrier, right? And light cruisers to turn into heavy command cruisers, right?” The commanders stopped whining.

At this point, the Lyrans had bases stretched throughout Klingon territory, usually with redundant paths, so they could quickly move strategically from the homeworld all the way to Tholian space. This gave them a lot of flexibility and the Alliance a headache. The Coalition had chosen to try to play without sending any economic aid to the Klingons, instead providing the aid directly by showing up with bases and ships. Strategically the Feds were piling half their production (~18 ships) onto the Romulan border; the Feds Rom-border deployment plus the Gorns more than doubled Romulan ship output, but this meant that Lyran pressure might enable the Klingons drive into Federation space.