During combat, the captains of different ship classes are under different tactical doctrinal standing orders about their conduct which can benefit the chances of survival of their ships should their ships receive potentially destructive amounts of damage.


(424.33) CASUALTIES: During the game, as casualties are taken, the player rolls two dice for each destroyed ship and interprets the results as follows:
1. If the uncrippled Defense Factor of the destroyed ship is 7 or less, a result of 2, 3, or 4 is a successful result and the ship can be (but does not have to be) placed in the holding box.
2. If the uncrippled Defense Factor of the destroyed ship is 8 or more, and the ship is not Size Class 2, a result of 3, 4, or 5 is a successful result and the ship can be (but does not have to be) placed in the holding box.
3. If the Size Class of the destroyed ship is 2 or the ship is receiving the formation bonus a result of 4, 5, or 6 is a successful result and the ship can be (but does not have to be) placed in the holding box.
4. Command Rating 10 ships and X-tech ships qualify for one level better if one exists.
[The player does not have to roll but can just salvage (439.0) all of the lost ships.] Otherwise, the ship is destroyed as in the normal rules. (There is no “pursuit battle” for these “destroyed” ships that turned out not to be destroyed.) Since only “destroyed” ships are sent to the depot, none of them can be removed from the depot for normal repairs.

By this method, the smaller ships still have the same 1/6 chance of surviving. Cruisers and command cruisers now have a 1/4 chance of surviving, and Size Class 2 ships have a 1/3 chance of surviving; still far from guaranteed, but better than before.

My justifications are that the cruisers have a little bit more padding than smaller ships and are farther from the enemy which allows them a better opportunity to withdraw. The Size Class 2 ships have the same benefits as the cruisers, but a little more. Command Rating 10 ships and X-tech ships are considered valuable enough to protect so standing orders say bug out before blowing up, and ships with the formation bonus are protected.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 07:34 am: Edit

Problem with this is bigger ships are already protected by the owning player not taking them when resolving casualties.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Don't need more die rolls and don't need to make big ships harder to kill.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Mike, then rule (424.0) doesn't come into play at all for the larger ships unless they are used to resolve damage points.

Richard, there will be no extra die rolls, just one more die to the (424.33) roll. This may be a bit pedantic, but the big ships are destroyed. They just have a better chance of returning in a few turns after going through the depot.

Overall if this proposal use utilized it won't result in any great increase in ships headed to the depots of the various empires. More likely it will be a small bright spot to a player who gets plastered into resolving damage with big ships and finds out he'll see that ship again in 5 turns or more.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 11:22 pm: Edit

The game would not benefit from this. It adds a lot of new die rolls. A battle (designed for single die combat resolution) would now take a second die roll for each of the five or ten ships "destroyed" which would increase playing time by 500% in combat and 25% in the game overall.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Would this new proposed rule result in fewer destroyed ships and more cripples?

--Mike

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 12:01 am: Edit

It would result in more ships going to the depot and being repaired for free, rather than just dying.

Size two wouldn't matter that much as you'd have to self kill one to get the die roll, which is generally not done.

You'd see formation ships blown up preferentially for the approx 1/3 chance of not dying after all, and you'd see more self killed cruisers survive.

In a game where ships probably don't die as much as they should, this would exacerbate that problem.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 04:16 am: Edit

Mike, it would result in more destroyed ships qualifying for depot level repairs.

Richard, it would result in marginally more ships going to the depot and being repaired for free. I agree that for size class two ships it wouldn't matter much for the reason you say, but disagree about the formation bonus ships as they are high value ships and wouldn't be in the formation slot if it was intended to blow them up voluntarily. The last point is valid, but it would be larger ships which benefit making later fleet ComPots larger.

Steve, I must disagree with the increase in die rolls and time. (424.33) exists, so the second die roll for each of the five or ten ships "destroyed" is already being done. This proposal would only add a second die to the one being rolled for no extra time, and then is only necessary for large and formation ships. Since the probability for DF7 and smaller ships doesn't change, players could opt for the single (424.33) die roll. It wouldn't take but a few rolls for players to learn to interpret the results without looking at the rule, so there's really no extra time added. Whether or not it benefits the game is your call.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 04:19 pm: Edit

I don't want this.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Saturday, August 20, 2022 - 12:38 am: Edit

I can't see how this helps, the game has been trying to 'cull the herd' created by players refusing to kill ships. Introducing auto kill rule, nerfing stacking of bases, eliminating CEDS was all a push to increase death where death can happen.

On one hand this rule would make players more aggressive as the fear of losing ships is lessened.

On the other hand the depot already fills up with Size 3 and 4 ships so adding more will take them out of commission by putting them in a long queue.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, August 21, 2022 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Lawrence, to be honest I never understood the need to cull the herd other than for the sake of limited counters. I fully agree with the statement in (802.2) which says, "EASY ESCAPES: It is virtually impossible to force someone to fight a decisive battle. After a single Combat Round (against the third-largest ship and six frigates), the enemy simply leaves. This is very realistic. Space is vast, and unlike oceans, there are no coastlines against which a fleet can be trapped as Nelson trapped the French at Trafalgar. To force the enemy to fight, you must threaten terrain that he cannot afford to lose."

In addition there are rules which go against the trend to cull the herd such as (425.3) Rapid Combat Repair. I read this as a possible use it or lose it ability for repair facilities to repair ships before a retreat. This could keep valuable ships out of a pursuit battle.

As for the depot filling up with size 3 and 4 ships, look at my proposal which is two previous to this one.

I'm not saying that the game will suffer without this proposal. It won't. I had some time to think while at work. I thought about DRL and came up with two observations. The first is that the Four Powers War wasn't really long enough or large enough to have a depot backup significant enough to realize a need for extra capability, and that there likely would have been an observation for the need to give more valuable ships a better chance to escape eminent destruction. So I input two proposals.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, August 21, 2022 - 10:23 pm: Edit

The real question is, does the game need this change?

So far, I am not seeing any reason for WHY this change should be implemented.

It also does not seem like it has much support, at least on these forums.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, August 22, 2022 - 08:18 am: Edit

Not everything that could be done should be done. This doesn't need doing and isn't going anywhere but the Captain's Log list of rejected proposals.